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THE Henry Paulson Thread (merged)

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Paulson: Government To Invest In Thousands Of Banks

Unread postby Denny » Tue 14 Oct 2008, 23:21:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'C')an anybody explain this, cause I'm kinda lost.

Treasury is investing big amounts of money in these companies. In exchange it's getting warrants. Now if I'm an investor in one of these companies. :lol: Ok, I know silly idea, but for the sake of argument suppose I was foolish enough to have money invested in one of these companies. I would be thinking, ohh...the company just issued billions of dollars in new stock which is going to dilute my stock. Not only that, it's going to be senior to my stock, so in a bankruptcy, I'm more likely to get nothing. AND the government just limited my dividend. I'm thinking, I'm pissed, and I want out of this stock. Somehow the market has different logic though. The companies that are pegged as being the ones to dilute their stock....they all soared today. They were some of the biggest gainers. Can someone explain that to me? I don't get it.


I guess it boils down to having a smaller share of something that survives and goes to make some profit, versus a bank that fails and winds up. There is not much point in having a higher share of something that winds up and leaves you nothing. Getting a capital infusion can keep the bank a going concern that would otherwise be undercapitalized and have to shut its doors. No different than many other companies, the last capital in gets the clout when its done under distress.
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Re: Paulson: Government To Invest In Thousands Of Banks

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Tue 14 Oct 2008, 23:36:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Denny', 'I') guess it boils down to having a smaller share of something that survives and goes to make some profit, versus a bank that fails and winds up.


So people are holding stock in banks that they expect to fail? That's dumb.
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Re: Paulson: Government To Invest In Thousands Of Banks

Unread postby oiless » Tue 14 Oct 2008, 23:36:52

I thought these were something called a "perpetual warrant", and would be kind of separated from the rest of the companies stocks, thus not diluting them.
Can't have the big boy's options becoming worthless after all.
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Re: Paulson: Government To Invest In Thousands Of Banks

Unread postby Denny » Wed 15 Oct 2008, 00:25:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Denny', 'I') guess it boils down to having a smaller share of something that survives and goes to make some profit, versus a bank that fails and winds up.


So people are holding stock in banks that they expect to fail? That's dumb.


There is some probability of failure baked into the selling price of the bank stocks. Maybe its 20% or 30% in some cases.
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Re: Paulson: Government To Invest In Thousands Of Banks

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Wed 15 Oct 2008, 00:27:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Denny', 'T')here is some probability of failure baked into the selling price of the bank stocks. Maybe its 20% or 30% in some cases.


That make sense I guess.
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Paulson gives banks money and crosses his fingers

Unread postby seldom_seen » Wed 15 Oct 2008, 03:09:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Paulson Lacks Leverage to Compel Banks to Put New Cash to Work

The equity stakes the government is purchasing in Citigroup Inc., Morgan Stanley and seven other big institutions come with no guarantee that the investments will spur lending and unfreeze credit markets. Nor do they give the government board seats or any other leverage to demand that that the firms actually use the money to help the economy.

"The truth of the matter is, they can't put a gun to their head and say you have to lend this money,'' said Charles Horn...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... refer=home

This article supports my earlier prediction that the money will probably be used for say real estate in Dubai or a shrimp farm in Indonesia. Most likely though I think we are setting the stage for oil to blast off for the outer reaches of the galaxy.

I don't know if it will happen next week or next month, but my guess is that commodities will come rocketing back with hurricane force winds.
Last edited by Ferretlover on Mon 23 Feb 2009, 23:17:28, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merged with THE Henry Paulson Thread.
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Re: Paulson gives banks money and crosses his fingers

Unread postby heroineworshipper » Wed 15 Oct 2008, 03:22:10

We've converted Neel Kashkari's $700,000 bonus into a $700 billion bonus.
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Re: Paulson gives banks money and crosses his fingers

Unread postby mefistofeles » Wed 15 Oct 2008, 03:24:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') don't know if it will happen next week or next month, but my guess is that commodities will come rocketing back with hurricane force winds.


I would agree the only question is when? Next week, next month? Two years.

Personally I think the whole world will collapse if we let this system go down. That doesn't mean that its not neccisarily the best thing to do but if the trade systems collapse the US,EU and Japan will be gone because they import so much energy.

Society will collapse without the credit systems neccisary to purchase energy.

However I think the measure will simply become more extreme if things do not go according to plan. I think Paulson could wind up nationalizing all the banks.

The question isn't whether or not the bankers can bring back the credit system. The question is what will they do to bring it back and what are the consequences?

I'm quite confident that there won't be a great depression. Although I can't say what follows afterwards won't be worse.
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Re: Paulson gives banks money and crosses his fingers

Unread postby EndOfGrowth » Wed 15 Oct 2008, 05:11:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t will they do to bring it back and what are the consequences?

I'm quite confident that there won't be a great depression. Although I can't say what follows afterwards won't be worse.


I wish i could share your confidence.

The Euphoria from the bailout is fading fast. Unemployment is soaring and the fallout of the credit crisis is only just begining to spread to the real economy. FTSE is plunging.
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Re: Paulson gives banks money and crosses his fingers

Unread postby TheDude » Wed 15 Oct 2008, 05:27:18

Being a fan of irony, I look forward to the prospect of citizens paying taxes to banking institutions, enabling said institutions to foreclose said citizens' property. :twisted:
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Re: Paulson gives banks money and crosses his fingers

Unread postby Daniel_Plainview » Wed 15 Oct 2008, 05:44:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seldom_seen', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')with no guarantee that the investments will spur lending and unfreeze credit markets. Nor do they give the government board seats or any other leverage to demand that that the firms actually use the money to help the economy.



The only thing that's guaranteed is that we will end up paying more and more in taxes to cover the interest on the ballooning national debt.

How nice.
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Re: Paulson gives banks money and crosses his fingers

Unread postby virgincrude » Wed 15 Oct 2008, 05:54:35

Here in Spain, some watchers and commentators are saying that what Paulson has done with the recent semi-nationalisation of the bigger banks, is effectively adopt the Chinese economic model: the State controls the money flow and currency exchange for the greater benefit of the businesses and or interests of the State. It's a question of national security: if the economy collapses it is ultimately a threat to security. We know that if the monetary system collapses, so does society as we know it. So by propping up the banks, they're propping up society .... looks like neo-fascism to me .....

mefistofoles:$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]I'm quite confident that there won't be a great depression. Although I can't say what follows afterwards won't be worse.


What do you base your confidence on mefistofeles? Looks to me like

THE Guru
knows something you don't, or you know something he doesn't .... which one of you has been hauled before the CFR for advice? Are you drawing up policy proposals right now, which -although they're not crediting you, -they are actually adopting? Roubini's forecasts (and every body else's) is for a long term serious depression, a Greater Depression, in fact than anything seen or experienced so far.

Please, what makes you confident?
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Re: Paulson gives banks money and crosses his fingers

Unread postby mefistofeles » Wed 15 Oct 2008, 06:34:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'k')nows something you don't, or you know something he doesn't .... which one of you has been hauled before the CFR for advice?


My own personal feeling is that the US, Europe and Japan simply can't survive if the system of international trade/credit breaks down.

This isn't 1929. America is not self sufficient and can't simply close its ports. If it did the country would be gone in a matter of weeks. Crude oil and gasoline imports would stop, as would the country itself.

Not only that but tax burderns are much higher in the US and Europe today than they were in 1929. Government's today aren't going to passively sit by and let the financial system fail because it would mean the end of most government spending programs.

Europe and Japan are likewise dependant upon the global financial system for their very survival. This really what triggered WWII, access to raw materials. Japan and Germany caused alot of trouble because they were not self sufficient in materials.

If asset prices keep on falling the banks go. If the banks go no financing for international trade, at least in its current form.

Yes Roubini's vicious circle of selling is certainly a possiblity but why can't the central banks print money via Zimbabwae?

I'm not saying this is a good thing but if the asset prices go too low the whole system of trade collapses. If the system of trade collapses their would be food and fuel riots. Remember Paris a few years ago, well that's what every major city in the G-8 would look like.

Who knows maybe Roubini is right and we will have a death spiral but the politicians and central nsmkds have too much at stake.

I think the stakes are too important in our geopolitical system to simply let it collapse. Believe me if it means taking over all the banks and force feeding credit into the system I think the central bankers will do it.

Its force feeding credit or riots across Europe and the US. Glancing at Roubini's article I think the professor is too polite to mention what governments could do if the credit crisis get's really bad: actually nationalize the banks and force feed credit into the system.

Of course we will have to bail out home owners in the US and the EU. That will become obvious to everyone after a while.

I think the problem with conventional wisdom on this issue is that people look at what governments have done. Not what they could do in the time of an extraordinary crisis. What we have seen is just the begining and as governments begin to understand the true scope of the problem they will develop solutions that are both imaginative and perhaps even unthinkable by todays standards.

I'm not saying that what they will do will work in the long term by any means but they have too much "incentive" to succeed. No will simply give up and let society collapse because there is a problem with the credit system.
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Re: Paulson gives banks money and crosses his fingers

Unread postby virgincrude » Wed 15 Oct 2008, 08:17:42

It's obvious the governments are hardly sitting by and doing nothing. Yet what they are doing, is insufficient to restore confidence and is serving only to maintain functionality.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his isn't 1929. America is not self sufficient and can't simply close its ports. If it did the country would be gone in a matter of weeks. Crude oil and gasoline imports would stop, as would the country itself.


Again, obviously this isn't 1929, which is why pundits are terming this The Greater Depression. We keep being told this is a crisis the likes of which we have never seen, solutions which were valid in the 1930s are not going to do it this time. First, you have to see this problem from its globalized aspect and not just a localized ocurrence: nobody is suggesting the US would simply close its borders as a solution to the credit and finance crisis. That's why TPTB are bleating for an organised international response. Again, from your post you seem to be suggesting that regional governments are sitting idly by and allowing the system to collapse, and enter Roubini's death spiral. That's not what I'm saying, but what is being done is actually called 'improvising', measures being taken now are experimental, there is no guarrantee that it will stave off a Greater Depression. And the indicators are that there is in fact nothing to be done.

I'm not saying nothing should be done, for the very reasons you point out: globalized economies can not survive alone, the failure of the banking system means the end of society as we know it. But what I feel is that it is actually inevitable, although it may not appear to be exactly like previous depressions/recessions.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Glancing at Roubini's article I think the professor is too polite to mention what governments could do if the credit crisis get's really bad: actually nationalize the banks and force feed credit into the system.


Funny you should say that, isn't that exactly what Gordon Brown and Hank Paulson have just done?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')o will simply give up and let society collapse because there is a problem with the credit system.

Again, this is not the point, nobody is letting society collapse, but I'm afraid the banking and finance system has reached a tipping point, as Roubini enumerates in the article (which he predicted in February last year). At this stage, governments need far more than imagination, they need tools which will work. And nobody has them. Cue: depression.
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Re: Paulson gives banks money and crosses his fingers

Unread postby frankthetank » Wed 15 Oct 2008, 09:06:30

Another fact is more and more of us will be unemployed. I feel the big wave of job cuts is on the horizon and its heading this way fast.

Without consumer spending, retail is going to take a huge hit.

A lot of people are maxed out and DON'T need to borrow, don't want to. Why would a business expand in this enviroment? If anything they are filling out the pink slips.

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Re: Paulson gives banks money and crosses his fingers

Unread postby TheDude » Wed 15 Oct 2008, 14:52:38

Bud Burrell suggested to Puplava on the last FSN that this could be a calamity on the order of the 1720 South Seas Bubble; we're down to having to dig into economic history for models.

The [s]bailout[/s] ass-reaming is up to $2.25 trillion, BTW: Drama Behind a $250 Billion Banking Deal - NYTimes.com

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n addition to the capital infusions, which will be made this week, the government said it would temporarily guarantee $1.5 trillion in new senior debt issued by banks, as well as insure $500 billion in deposits in noninterest-bearing accounts, mainly used by businesses.

All told, the potential cost to the government of the latest bailout package comes to $2.25 trillion, triple the size of the original $700 billion rescue package, which centered on buying distressed assets from banks. The latest show of government firepower is an abrupt about-face for Mr. Paulson, who just days earlier was discouraging the idea of capital injections for banks.


California’s Unemployment Fund Stingy and About to Be Out of Cash
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Re: Paulson gives banks money and crosses his fingers

Unread postby seldom_seen » Wed 15 Oct 2008, 15:37:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', '[')url=http://www.financialsense.com/Experts/2008/Burrell.html]Bud Burrell[/url] suggested to Puplava on the last FSN that this could be a calamity on the order of the 1720 South Seas Bubble; we're down to having to dig into economic history for models.

I listened to that interview, wow. If you have a warm fuzzy feeling and would like to maintain it, don't listen to that interview.

Bud pretty much lays it all on the line. The market has evolved in to a criminal enterprise with no oversight. Organized crime has found naked short selling much easier than other forms of crime. Some 10 trillion dollars has been funneled offshore. People who start pushing the wrong buttons on this story find their safety in jeopardy, and I think he says the whole thing will end with blood in the streets.
Last edited by seldom_seen on Wed 15 Oct 2008, 15:38:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Paulson gives banks money and crosses his fingers

Unread postby DeepOil » Wed 15 Oct 2008, 15:37:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', '[')url=http://www.financialsense.com/Experts/2008/Burrell.html]Bud Burrell[/url] suggested to Puplava on the last FSN that this could be a calamity on the order of the 1720 South Seas Bubble; we're down to having to dig into economic history for models.



From Wikipedia (1720 South Seas Bubble): "Under the guidance of Walpole, Parliament attempted to deal with the financial crisis. The estates of the directors of the company were confiscated and used to relieve the suffering of the victims"

Think we will see that happen here? Not in a million years.
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Re: Paulson gives banks money and crosses his fingers

Unread postby JPL » Wed 15 Oct 2008, 17:43:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DoomWarrior', '
')The only thing that's guaranteed is that we will end up paying more and more in taxes to cover the interest on the ballooning national debt.


What with???

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Paulson Sees Four Options For Fannie Mae In The Future

Unread postby Ache » Thu 08 Jan 2009, 03:34:43

Link shortened by wisconsin_cur

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')WASHINGTON (Dow Jones) - Outgoing Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson on Wednesday outlined four long term options for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac: nationalization, privatization and two hybrid approaches.

"The first step must be for policymakers to decide - in light of the recent housing bubble and the severe financial and economic penalty it has imposed on our nation - the role government should play in supporting home ownership," Paulson told observers at the Economics Club in Washington.

Paulson is on his way out as Treasury Secretary with President Elect Barack Obama's nominee to succeed Paulson, New York Federal Reserve Chairman Timothy Geithner, ready to step in his place.

The Treasury placed both Fannie (FNM) and Freddie (FRE) in a conservatorship in September, which Paulson said must be a temporary condition. He argued that outright nationalization, his first option, is a "less than optimal" approach.

Paulson also said he was skeptical of fully privatizing the housing entities, which was another strategy he discussed. With this approach, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac would be broken up into a number of entities which would "minimize risk."

One hybrid approach would be to create a Ginnie Mae type entity for non- Federal Housing Authority mortgages. This structure would provide only a partial guarantee for mortgage backed securities.

"While such a hybrid program would clearly define the extent of the government's guarantee, developing risk sharing parameters compatible with profit incentives would be as problematic, and potentially as inefficient, as in the current GSE structure," Paulson said.

He was most supportive of an approach that would establish a mortgage credit guarantor. In this strategy, Congress would replace Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac with private entities that would purchase and securitize mortgages guaranteed by the federal government. These entities would be regulated by a rate setting commission that would also approve mortgage products. "In this model, continued safety and soundness regulation would be essential," Paulson said.

Separately, the Federal Reserve Bank of New York is expected on Thursday to release its first study reporting an aggregate amount of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and Ginnie Mae guaranteed mortgage-backed securities the division has purchased as part of an earlier announced $500 billion program. The program was announced on Nov. 25 to create liquidity in the mortgage-backed securities market and help lower mortgage rates in response to the housing crisis. The New York regulator will on a weekly basis provide details about the aggregate dollar figure spent on mortgage backed securities. No details will be provided about which financial institutions are participating. "[This has] accomplished a vitally important step in addressing this housing correction - lower mortgage rates that may bring additional credit-worthy buyers into the housing market," Paulson said.

Paulson argued that the program has already had a significant impact, pointing out that the 30-year fixed mortgage rate has fallen to 6.04% the week before the plan was announced, to 5.1% last week.

A New York Fed spokesman said Wednesday that the division is making one-on-one purchases, rather than auctions as some expected.
Last edited by Ferretlover on Mon 23 Feb 2009, 23:18:42, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merged with THE Henry Paulson Thread.
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