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THE Great Depression Thread (merged)

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL
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Re: Stories of the Great Depression

Postby J-Rod » Tue 18 Apr 2006, 07:45:57

Apology accepted.
Reality is agreed perception. Unfortunately there is also a reality imposed by nature.
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Re: Stories of the Great Depression

Postby Falconoffury » Tue 18 Apr 2006, 11:12:02

I blame the greedy bankers from the early days of the industrialized age who created a growth based system of currency. The average person consumed resources out of ignorance, so he is not to blame.
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Photo Essay Of Great Depression

Postby RonMN » Tue 08 Aug 2006, 14:35:00

Is this what we're headed for? Worse?

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Re: Photo Essay Of Great Depressipn

Postby gnm » Tue 08 Aug 2006, 15:01:19

US Population in 1930 ~124 million...

US population in 2006 ~300 million...

Never mind the world population or per capita energy consumption....

Yup, worse..... MUCH WORSE.

8O

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Re: Photo Essay Of Great Depression

Postby seahorse2 » Tue 08 Aug 2006, 15:45:51

Its obvious from the pictures of the abject poverty why people were so willing to rush into a world war.
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Re: Photo Essay Of Great Depression

Postby swingbolder » Tue 08 Aug 2006, 17:26:13

One thing that always strikes me when viewing photos of that era is the relative lack of fat people, compared to today.

Poor people are much fatter these days.
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Re: Photo Essay Of Great Depression

Postby cube » Tue 08 Aug 2006, 19:10:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('swingbolder', 'O')ne thing that always strikes me when viewing photos of that era is the relative lack of fat people, compared to today.

Poor people are much fatter these days.
PO will solve the obesity problem. :twisted:
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Re: Photo Essay Of Great Depression

Postby rogerhb » Tue 08 Aug 2006, 21:55:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('swingbolder', 'P')oor people are much fatter these days.


Shock horror, poor people are less healthy than those with more income.

Go back to the good old days, what was infant mortality like, how many died during child-birth, what was the life expectancy?
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Re: Photo Essay Of Great Depression

Postby rogerhb » Tue 08 Aug 2006, 22:01:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse2', 'I')ts obvious from the pictures of the abject poverty why people were so willing to rush into a world war.


Hm, US certainly did everything to avoid WWII.

Remember Chamberlain, Munich and Peace in our Time.

Nobody rushed into WWII. Not even Germany who did not want another world war, and were rather surprised when the UK and France declared war following invasion of Poland.
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Re: Photo Essay Of Great Depression

Postby elocs » Tue 08 Aug 2006, 22:06:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('swingbolder', 'P')oor people are much fatter these days.


Shock horror, poor people are less healthy than those with more income.

Go back to the good old days, what was infant mortality like, how many died during child-birth, what was the life expectancy?


I think because of the high infant mortality rates in the past that the longevity stats were skewed. I think that if a person survived childhood that their life expectancy was probably pretty decent for the time. Many of our founding fathers in the U.S. lived to an old age.
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Re: Photo Essay Of Great Depression

Postby rogerhb » Tue 08 Aug 2006, 22:14:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('elocs', 'M')any of our founding fathers in the U.S. lived to an old age.


.... and were rich landowners with slaves to do the back breaking work while they pondered the issues of state.
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Re: Photo Essay Of Great Depression

Postby elocs » Tue 08 Aug 2006, 22:39:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('elocs', 'M')any of our founding fathers in the U.S. lived to an old age.


.... and were rich landowners with slaves to do the back breaking work while they pondered the issues of state.


I am not disputing that, but my point is that if a person surivived childhood they probably were going to live to be beyond 40, particularly if they were male and did not risk dying in childbirth. I am the 12th generation in the U.S. and I had a number of great, great...grandfathers who lived to be in their 60s or longer and they were not wealthy slaveholders. They did seem to outlive their first wives after the women had many children, then remarried and had more.
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Re: Photo Essay Of Great Depression

Postby Loki » Tue 08 Aug 2006, 22:49:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse2', 'I')ts obvious from the pictures of the abject poverty why people were so willing to rush into a world war.


The pics of migrant farmworkers are not representative of how the vast majority of people lived during the Depression. Hell, a lot of migrant farmworkers today don't live a whole lot better. One of the captions says there were 4 million "on the road" at the end of the 1930s. There were 132.2 million people in the US in 1940--4 million is 3% of that population. Statistically insignificant.

Not that that the 1930s wasn't a hard decade for many Americans, but most were not living in cardboard shacks, eating rotten peas and turtles. What really whipped up public support for WWII was Pearl Harbor. Prior to that there was a very strong sentiment among a lot of Americans against our entering the war.

Whether the next Great Depression will be worse than the last one, I have no idea. My crystal ball is in the shop. It wouldn't surprise me, though. And it's not unlikely that, like the last one, it will result in another world war.
Last edited by Loki on Tue 08 Aug 2006, 22:59:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Photo Essay Of Great Depression

Postby elocs » Tue 08 Aug 2006, 22:56:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse2', 'I')ts obvious from the pictures of the abject poverty why people were so willing to rush into a world war.


The pics of migrant farmworkers are not representative of how the vast majority of people lived during the Depression. Hell, a lot of migrant farmworkers today don't live a whole lot better. One of the captions says there were 4 million "on the road" at the end of the 1930s. There were 132.2 million people in the US in 1940--4 million is 3% of that population. Statistically insignificant.

Not that that 1930s wasn't a hard decade for many Americans, but most were not living in cardboard shacks, eating rotten peas and turtles. What really whipped up public support for WWII was Pearl Harbor. Prior to that there was a very strong sentiment among a lot of Americans against our entering the war.

Whether the next Great Depression will be worse than the last one, I have no idea. My crystal ball is in the shop. It wouldn't surprise me, though. It's not unlikely that, like the last one, it will result in another world war.


I think the next depression will be worse since our population has more than doubled and the people are more separated from the land now and fewer people grow any of their own food. We are also a generation separated from the Great Depression. If I remember correctly, I think they chose to call what was happening a "depression" because they did not want to use the scare word "recession".
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Re: Photo Essay Of Great Depression

Postby MonteQuest » Tue 08 Aug 2006, 22:58:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', ' ')Hm, US certainly did everything to avoid WWII.



The American people did, but not the ruling elite or the government.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')For a long time I have believed that our best entrance into the war would be by way of Japan…And, of course, if we go to war against Japan, it will inevitably lead us to war against Germany.” —Secretary of Interior Harold L. Ickes, October 18, 1941


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')et still, on October 7, 1941, a national poll found that two-thirds said it was more important to keep out of war than to defeat Germany. On October 27, in his famous “Navy Day” address, Roosevelt riveted the nation by claiming he had come into the possession of a “secret map” made in Nazi Germany that proved Hitler was lying when he said he had no designs on the Western Hemisphere. “ I have in my possession a secret map, made in Germany by Hitler's government-by the planners of the new world order. It is a map of South America and a part of Central America as Hitler proposes to reorganize it.”

As has often happened, the truth about the map did not emerge until many years after the war: It was a forgery produced by the British intelligence service, most probably at its technical laboratory in Ontario, Canada. William Stephenson (code name: Intrepid), chief of British intelligence operations in North America, passed it on to U.S. intelligence Chief William Donovan, who gave it to Roosevelt. This map, the President explained, showed South America, as well as “our great life line, the Panama Canal,” divided into five vassal states under German domination. “That map, my friends, makes clear the Nazi design not only against South America but against the United States as well.”

On November 25, 1941, Secretary of War and CFR member, Henry L. Stimson wrote in his diary: “In spite of the risk involved, however, in letting the Japanese fire the first shot, we realized that, in order to have the full support of the American people, it was desirable to make sure that the Japanese be the ones to do this so that there could be no doubt in anyone’s mind as to who were the aggressors… The question was, how we should maneuver them into firing the first shot without allowing too much damage to ourselves. It was a difficult proposition.”


Remind anyone of 911?

Sacrificing only the old and marginally useful ships was the solution to that problem. Some will say that it was a necessary horror we had to endure to make the world safe for democracy. Pearl Harbor, this view holds, was a pawn sacrificed to capture a king—a master stroke. I invite you to finish this paragraph with your own words.
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Re: Photo Essay Of Great Depression

Postby seahorse » Tue 08 Aug 2006, 23:15:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')obody rushed into WWII. Not even Germany who did not want another world war, and were rather surprised when the UK and France declared war following invasion of Poland.


I'm sure the Germans didn't want a world war, but that didn't stop them from "electing" Hitler, invading Poland, Czech, Russia, and every other neighbor. Get real Roger. The Germans weren't seeking peace with anyone.

But for the world's great depression, I don't think there would have been a world war. If you don't think the Great Depression was a proximate cause of WWII, give your reasons for the war.

Loki Said:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he pics of migrant farmworkers are not representative of how the vast majority of people lived during the Depression . . . Not that that the 1930s wasn't a hard decade for many Americans, but most were not living in cardboard shacks, eating rotten peas and turtles.


Well, if the depression didn't cause mass poverty and hungry bellies, why don't you post pics of how the vast majority of Americans were living? Instead of your belief as to the truth, show us how the vast majority of people lived during the depression? compare that to the roaring 20s. I've also seen pictures of Germans burning wheelbarrows full of cash, hungry Europeans, tell us how good it was. Trying to argue against the pics and saying they aren't representative of the Great Depression sounds eerily similar to the Holocaust was a hoax argument.
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Re: Photo Essay Of Great Depression

Postby rogerhb » Tue 08 Aug 2006, 23:26:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse', 'I')'m sure the Germans didn't want a world war, but that didn't stop them from "electing" Hitler, invading Poland, Czech, Russia, and every other neighbor. Get real Roger. The Germans weren't seeking peace with anyone.


Hitler could easily be compared with Saddam who invaded Kuwait because he did not think anyone would mind.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse', 'B')ut for the world's great depression, I don't think there would have been a world war. If you don't think the Great Depression was a proximate cause of WWII, give your reasons for the war.


The hyperinflation of Germany was nothing to do with the "depression", it was a result of bankrupting the country through war-reparations. Germany was on it's knees, facism took over in the vaccuum.
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Re: Photo Essay Of Great Depression

Postby Loki » Tue 08 Aug 2006, 23:47:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse', '
')
Well, if the depression didn't cause mass poverty and hungry bellies, why don't you post pics of how the vast majority of Americans were living? Instead of your belief as to the truth, show us how the vast majority of people lived during the depression? compare that to the roaring 20s. I've also seen pictures of Germans burning wheelbarrows full of cash, hungry Europeans, tell us how good it was. Trying to argue against the pics and saying they aren't representative of the Great Depression sounds eerily similar to the Holocaust was a hoax argument.


Wow. That was a magnificently ignorant post if there ever was one. Now I understand why so many peakoilers have such ridiculous doomeristic fantasies. Complete ignorance of history. Thanks for shedding light on that. If you think Dorothea Lange's photos are representative of how most Americans lived in the 1930s, you really need to get a clue. Buy one, borrow one, steal one, just get one.

If, on the off chance, you actually care about historical facts, you might want to read some primary and secondary sources on the Depression rather than glean everything you "know" from propagandistic photos.
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Re: Photo Essay Of Great Depression

Postby SeasonOfPain » Wed 09 Aug 2006, 00:19:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('elocs', 'I') think the next depression will be worse since our population has more than doubled and the people are more separated from the land now and fewer people grow any of their own food. We are also a generation separated from the Great Depression.

We're separated from any real hardship at all, in the U.S. at least.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('elocs', 'I')f I remember correctly, I think they chose to call what was happening a "depression" because they did not want to use the scare word "recession".

I believe the commonly-used term they wanted to avoid was "panic".

There were actually a lot of depressions prior to the one that started in 1929; they seemed to follow a regular cycle. That's why classical economics didn't anticipate or know how to deal with the one that occurred in 1929, other than to "wait it out".

The most (truthfully) ascribed causes were fairly unusual at the time, but eerily similar in a lot of ways to today. A large gap in income existed between the rich and the poor. A good majority of U.S. citizens were over-extended on credit, spending their free money on the newest gadget or speculative investment. A real-estate bubble was created in Florida, and when it popped it was replaced with the wild speculative stock bubble that led to the '29 crash (sounds like we tried that in reverse this time). The crash itself didn't cause the depression so much as weaken the system enough to let a lot of other problems become much more serious. Throw in the farmers' economic (post WWI surplus) and climate (dust bowl) problems, and you had a pretty good warm-up for the Long Emergency.

Of course, the standard argument I commonly hear against another depression is that "we have economic safeguards now that would never let that happen." That argument sounds suspiciously like "technology will save us" to me.
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Re: Photo Essay Of Great Depression

Postby MrBill » Wed 09 Aug 2006, 08:35:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RonMN', 'I')s this what we're headed for? Worse?

Link


Great Depression for some, drought or the Dust Bowl for others. The Roaring Twenties did not make everyone rich either. So both are popular images born from a handfull of photographs and anecdotes.

Twenty five percent unemployment? Heck, France has that today for its unintegrated minorities and under 30's. Certainly, some European countries have structural unemployment of around 12.5% if you count one euro a day jobs, those who have given up looking for work, those on long-term disability and those force to retire early or are being paid to re-train.

I have to agree with Roger (and it pains me) that War Reparations which bankrupted Germany and it was the ill-signed Treaty of Versailles that sowed the seeds of the Second World War in Europe. The USA made plenty selling to both sides, directly or indirectly, and that was a welcome relief to get back to work after the fall-out from the Depression.

Regardless, I do not doubt the historical fact that Tokyo attacked Pearl Harbor first. That seems more concrete than who sunk the Lusitania?
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