$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('whiteknight', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')In a declining energy environment, the last thing you need is a new energy consumer. Complex technology is just that--an energy consumer, with all of the by-products of energy transformation that we call pollution and waste. This takes even more energy in the long-run to deal with it than you gained from the short-term utliity. No free lunches. Cleaning up a mess creates an even bigger mess. Always will. 2nd law forces us to be always playing catch up.
PeakOil is You
THE Entropy Thread (merged)
by EnergySpin » Sat 13 Aug 2005, 15:54:55
So, the sun doenst give us buttloads of energy? We cant grow more biomass which stores the suns energy and consumes the carbon that burning the biomass produces? No matter how "green" the technology is we are Doomed Doomed Doomed Doomed Doomed all because of the dreaded Second Law of Thermodynamics?
Sounds the same as a cross cultist using some obscure passage from the bible to justify his view that the world ends next thursday afternnon at 5 PM.
Oh, I forget, since I dont understand "SCIENCE!!!" I am just not getting how VITAL this all is to our very SURVIVAL!
Got it, me moron, you genius. Me send you all me money to get you book on how me so screwed. Uggh.
The earth is an closed system receiving an energy flux from the sun.
Since Energy In > Energy Out, the earth is not in thermodynamic equilibrium, thereofre the order may increase on earth. There are limitations in the sense that if we had a way to appropriate ALL the energy received by the sun for "economic growth" there would be no energy left to run the climate, grow plants or even maintain the atmosphere (it is maintained by plant life).
Since you want to read on the thermodynamic limits of sustainability I would suggest the following article: http://engineering.dartmouth.edu/~cushm ... bility.pdf
"Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
The genetic code is commaless and so are my posts.
The genetic code is commaless and so are my posts.
-
EnergySpin - Intermediate Crude
- Posts: 2248
- Joined: Sat 25 Jun 2005, 03:00:00
by MonteQuest » Sat 13 Aug 2005, 16:23:09
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('whiteknight', ' ')So, the sun doenst give us buttloads of energy? We cant grow more biomass which stores the suns energy and consumes the carbon that burning the biomass produces? No matter how "green" the technology is we are Doomed Doomed Doomed Doomed Doomed all because of the dreaded Second Law of Thermodynamics?
Never said it didn't. That is not the issue. The issue is that right now, and for the forseebale future, the energy source that holds entropy at bay is ancient sunlight in the form of fossil fuels.
We have only harnessed 1000th of 1% of the solar flux so far. To create complex technologies that rely on cheap abundant energy to keep entropy at bay in a declining energy environment, is asking for chaos.
We need to use simpler, less energy intensive technologies that are sustainable and low-entropy. We need to use less energy, not more.
And no, we are not doomed, we just need to consider that our sense of order is the exact opposite of the way the world works and proceed acccordingly.
Our idea of using technology as a short-term utility to solve a problem actually increases the problem long-term. There are no free lunches. Water does not flow uphill.
We are always playing catch up as 2nd law prevents an even exchange.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
-
MonteQuest - Expert
- Posts: 16593
- Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
- Location: Westboro, MO
Re: <>
by richardmmm » Wed 24 Aug 2005, 09:44:07
the problem is that most of the laws of physics are flawed because in order to observe something it is necessary to assume some fixed point of reference which in reality does not exist.
the cat, mouse and bag of peants locked in a box for example does not take into account that fact that it is on the earth spinning at about 700mph. which itself is spinning around the sun, which itself is flying about inside the galaxay etc etc.
the problems become much more obvious when you look into cosmology and astrophysics. Scientists have had to come up with all kinds of unknown objects to account for the lack of sufficient gravitation forces to hold the universe / galaxy together. Even Einstein was concerned about the possible invalidty of the black hole implications of his theories.
physicists have over looked the plasma / electrostatic models that show much more accurately how galxaies interact with each other and how they function internally, without the need for a whole plathora of unknown dark entities that cannot be proven to exist.
The current argument in astrophysics is that it is assumed that dark entities must exist and no one can prove they don't, therefore they must exist is a completely non scientific theory, equivalent of me saying that garden gnomes exist unless you can prove they don't.
Where does all the energy to power the spinning solar system and galaxy come from ? How is it held together, there must be a hidden energy source, therefore I would say using the current daft science that hidden energy sources must exist unless you can prove they don't. It all gets silly. Science is stuck in a dogma because the old school refuse to move on past old theroies that are over simplified at best.
For a detailed dicussion of this see the following link.
http://www.electric-cosmos.org/introduction.htm
It is much more likely that the galaxies are held together with electorstatic / plamsa forces that are much more powerful over long distances than gravity. Therefore if you can tap that energy source you can enable a vast energy producing machine with a small amount of energy. I believe that some of the "loopy inventions" that can't be understood with standard physics are doing this.
And like I said on the other forum, just because a caveman had no idea of why firewood burned and the chemical and physical processes taking place, didn't stop him from heating his cave and cooking his food.
Infact the entire industrial revolution took place with very little understanding of the electro-molecular operations of burning things, but that doesn't mean they were useless or invalid.
the cat, mouse and bag of peants locked in a box for example does not take into account that fact that it is on the earth spinning at about 700mph. which itself is spinning around the sun, which itself is flying about inside the galaxay etc etc.
the problems become much more obvious when you look into cosmology and astrophysics. Scientists have had to come up with all kinds of unknown objects to account for the lack of sufficient gravitation forces to hold the universe / galaxy together. Even Einstein was concerned about the possible invalidty of the black hole implications of his theories.
physicists have over looked the plasma / electrostatic models that show much more accurately how galxaies interact with each other and how they function internally, without the need for a whole plathora of unknown dark entities that cannot be proven to exist.
The current argument in astrophysics is that it is assumed that dark entities must exist and no one can prove they don't, therefore they must exist is a completely non scientific theory, equivalent of me saying that garden gnomes exist unless you can prove they don't.
Where does all the energy to power the spinning solar system and galaxy come from ? How is it held together, there must be a hidden energy source, therefore I would say using the current daft science that hidden energy sources must exist unless you can prove they don't. It all gets silly. Science is stuck in a dogma because the old school refuse to move on past old theroies that are over simplified at best.
For a detailed dicussion of this see the following link.
http://www.electric-cosmos.org/introduction.htm
It is much more likely that the galaxies are held together with electorstatic / plamsa forces that are much more powerful over long distances than gravity. Therefore if you can tap that energy source you can enable a vast energy producing machine with a small amount of energy. I believe that some of the "loopy inventions" that can't be understood with standard physics are doing this.
And like I said on the other forum, just because a caveman had no idea of why firewood burned and the chemical and physical processes taking place, didn't stop him from heating his cave and cooking his food.
Infact the entire industrial revolution took place with very little understanding of the electro-molecular operations of burning things, but that doesn't mean they were useless or invalid.
-
richardmmm - Lignite
- Posts: 205
- Joined: Sat 20 Aug 2005, 03:00:00
Re: <>
by Z » Sat 27 Aug 2005, 21:51:45
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raphael', 'I') also believe the process of moving from a state of minimum entropy (the past) to a state of maximum entropy (the future) is the template used in the many different stories contained within myth.
Since it is such an ubiquitous law, it is no surprise you will find it in many myths.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raphael', 'T')he Garden of Eden descending into chaos once sin enters but in the end is redeemed.
I don't follow you ... Adam & Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden. Where is it stated that it descended into chaos ?
Freedom is up to the length of the chain.
-
Z - Lignite
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Wed 11 May 2005, 03:00:00
- Location: France
