[davidyson]

Just some wild, probably immature and silly thoughts:

For a while I have been thinking that order comes as a side-effect of the entropic thrust. All forces have an anti-force. Action an reaction. Matter and anti-matter. In order to increase entropy, some order has to be sacrificed for heat and potentially a smaller amount of higher order.

Relatively cool gas clouds form stars under gravitational forces, so that the matter can be converted into heat even quicker.

As soon as the suns are exhausted, they collapse an explode in another burst of entropy. The remainder of the solar system eventually collapses, too and/or gets attracted by another nearby star system, just so wreak havoc there.

In a contracting universe, the same probably happens to whole galaxies and even galaxy clusters. There is always the trend to form more organized structures (with higher density of matter) so that they can cause more entropy.
(In an infinitely expanding universe, all matter eventually gets dispersed infinitely, thereby achieving maximum average entropy.)

As soon as all suns are burnt out, just the background radiation will continue to turn matter into heat, asymptotically approaching maximum entropy.

Now how does evolution fit into this picture? Very simple: Living things are highly organised matter, being able to produce much more entropy than dead matter (except huge accumulations of dead matter like suns) by processing nutrients and multiplying. So places like Earth with lots of "free" energy from our sun should almost inevitable have life on them - it turns the planet so much quicker into heat!

And how does intelligent life fit into this? Look at us - human beings are the crown of creation - they are producing entropy so much quicker than any other species and have even invented weapons that could actually devastate the planet manyfold.

So my thesis is that there is order because there is the law of increasing entropy - they are two sides of a medal, an expression of the universe's symmetry of forces. Order might be like the recoil of entropy. The same applies to life and even intelligent life in places where just the right entropic pressure can be found.

What do you think?

Cheers,

Davidyson

PS: No, I didn't drink or smoke too much of the wrong stuff...

[whiteknight]

Aren't order and chaos states dependant upon ones point of view?

Take for instance a forest fire.

To the animal within the fire all is chaos, as energy is releaced all manner of things are occuring that seem random in and of themselves. Flaming branches fall and start other things on fire, killing animals who are not fast enough. On and on. Chaos, utter and total.

However take the viewpoint of the human child who is grows up after the fire is over. Now as he grows up, from the disorder of fallen burnt trees slowly other trees grow, other plants come about and animals return. From his perspective order is coming from the chaos.

I think we are applying human viewpoints on natural events and giving them meaning where none may realy be. But then that is humanities lot, we are rationalizing creatures, not neccisarily rational. We seek patterns and often we see the pattern that isnt there.

[EnergySpin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('whiteknight', 'A')ren't order and chaos states dependant upon ones point of view?

Take for instance a forest fire.

To the animal within the fire all is chaos, as energy is releaced all manner of things are occuring that seem random in and of themselves. Flaming branches fall and start other things on fire, killing animals who are not fast enough. On and on. Chaos, utter and total.

However take the viewpoint of the human child who is grows up after the fire is over. Now as he grows up, from the disorder of fallen burnt trees slowly other trees grow, other plants come about and animals return. From his perspective order is coming from the chaos.

I think we are applying human viewpoints on natural events and giving them meaning where none may realy be. But then that is humanities lot, we are rationalizing creatures, not neccisarily rational. We seek patterns and often we see the pattern that isnt there.

[whiteknight]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', 'N')o .. order and chaos might be a form of scientific anthropomorphism, but they can be grounded in mathematical terms i.e. in terms of the Entropy of the distribution of particle positions (or the probability of finding them in a certain position) making up a system.

[EnergySpin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('whiteknight', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', 'N')o .. order and chaos might be a form of scientific anthropomorphism, but they can be grounded in mathematical terms i.e. in terms of the Entropy of the distribution of particle positions (or the probability of finding them in a certain position) making up a system.

[highboom]

I'm not going to refute what you wrote... I just want to know if you could explain most of that to someone who although smart, needs a little help understanding your calculations.

[EnergySpin]

It can be confusing ... because the word entropy is used in many different contexts. A good introduction (addresses life) can be read here (u do not need to accept the panspermia hypothesis, they just have a good intro in their website)
Wikipedia has a good introduction as well here
The way I try to explain the situation to people is through a hypothetical example:
Consider the list of numbers (which could represent velocities of particles, positions of particles etc) :

A 2
B 2
C 2
D 2
The first law says that their average (which in this case is 2.) should stay the same for ever (after all they are physical properties subject to conservation). The second law says that as time passes, the difference between the individual members should increase till to the maximum if possible. In our example, (and assuming that only values from 0-4 are possible) the system might evolve in the following:
A 0
B 1
C 3
D 4
The average is still 2, but the values are more dispersed. The second situation has higher entropy than the first. In order to restore the system to its previous (organised state) one has to spend energy.
Problems do arise when the different kinds of entropies are mixed together ... i.e. logical, mechanical etc. Good luck with the two pages, they are really good introductiory stuff
If you want to see it in numbers:
The first state: The probability of finding a number with a value of 0,1,3,4
is zero, and the probability of finding a number with the value of 2 is 4/4 =1
The entropy is then equal to zero (the logarithm of 1 is equal to 0).
In the second state, the probability of finding a number with a value of 0 is 1/4, 1: 1/4, 2: zero and 3: 1/4, 4: 1/4 which is a number greater than 0. Entropy has increased. Granted I'm using the information theoretic definition of entropy... just to make the point.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('whiteknight', ' ')
Ok... Let me see if I get this then. Since the planet is several million years old we should be in a state of utter and total chaos or at least a state far more chaotic than at the begining? How do we explain the fact that life seems to becomeing more ordered as time passes? Simple single celled creatures evolving into multicellular organizations which evolved from primative forms to more advanced forms. Each time getting more and more efficent at surviving in their environments.

How does this all work with thermodynamics then?

[whiteknight]

Hmm.. sounds to me that Entropy as you all describe it is irrelevant to my life and likely the life of my children and their children. However the great great grand children might want to look into some entropy insurance.

How the heck is this relevant to the next 50 years? Even the next 500 years. If Entropy aint killed us in a billion years how likely is it to kill us next week?

And I am an atheist. Gods need not apply.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('whiteknight', 'H')mm.. sounds to me that Entropy as you all describe it is irrelevant to my life and likely the life of my children and their children. However the great great grand children might want to look into some entropy insurance.

How the heck is this relevant to the next 50 years? Even the next 500 years. If Entropy aint killed us in a billion years how likely is it to kill us next week?

And I am an atheist. Gods need not apply.

[0mar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('whiteknight', 'H')mm.. sounds to me that Entropy as you all describe it is irrelevant to my life and likely the life of my children and their children. However the great great grand children might want to look into some entropy insurance.

How the heck is this relevant to the next 50 years? Even the next 500 years. If Entropy aint killed us in a billion years how likely is it to kill us next week?

And I am an atheist. Gods need not apply.

[whiteknight]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'K')ill us? However, every single physical activity is governed by the 2nd law of thermodynamics or Entropy Law. I suggest you start at the beggining of this thread and read through it. Understanding this law is one of the most important things you will ever learn.

[whiteknight]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('0mar', 'g')o learn some science....

[Antimatter]

Other than outlawing free energy schemes etc, and giving an appreciation for boundaries to efficiency improvments (carnot cycle etc), it's not especially earth shattering. Arguing that the second law precludes technological society from continuing is like saying gravity means we are doomed never to walk, IMO.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('whiteknight', ' ')Seems to me it's like discussing when the sun is going to go supernova and destroy us all. It's a problem so far beyond anything we can affect and so far in the future there is no reason for the next three or four generations to seriously concern themselves.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Antimatter', 'O')ther than outlawing free energy schemes etc, and giving an appreciation for boundaries to efficiency improvments (carnot cycle etc), it's not especially earth shattering. Arguing that the second law precludes technological society from continuing is like saying gravity means we are doomed never to walk, IMO.

[whiteknight]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Antimatter', 'A')rguing that the second law precludes technological society from continuing is like saying gravity means we are doomed never to walk, IMO.

[EnergySpin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')eems the best answer to offest entropy is to increase carbon emmisions so we can trap more of the precious heat from all the energy we consume. Who wins, the radiating of heat or the greenhouse gases trapping that heat?

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('whiteknight', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Antimatter', 'A')rguing that the second law precludes technological society from continuing is like saying gravity means we are doomed never to walk, IMO.

[whiteknight]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')In a declining energy environment, the last thing you need is a new energy consumer. Complex technology is just that--an energy consumer, with all of the by-products of energy transformation that we call pollution and waste. This takes even more energy in the long-run to deal with it than you gained from the short-term utliity. No free lunches. Cleaning up a mess creates an even bigger mess. Always will. 2nd law forces us to be always playing catch up.