Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

THE Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) Thread (merged)

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Unread postby Wildwell » Sat 19 Feb 2005, 09:44:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('stu', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', '
')The impression I get is that things are worse on your side of the pond.

You're correct that demographically there is a timebomb waiting to go off in both regions with a massive amount of baby boomers set to retire in the next few years.


You could say that. Recent reports yesterday suggested that the civil service pension bill for the UK is a staggering £700bn

So what could you buy for that?

117 new channel tunnels

100 new Airbus projects

Completely rebuild the entire road network twice over

Build 35,000 miles of high speed railway

200 new nuclear power stations
User avatar
Wildwell
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1962
Joined: Thu 03 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Location: UK

Unread postby lorenzo » Sat 19 Feb 2005, 10:31:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', '
')Europe is world leader in social cohesion,


Sounds great. Once you guys got rid of that "jewish question" I suppose social cohesion was much easier to achieve.


Hey man, that's a very vile way of discussing things. Get over the Second World War. That's ages ago. I don't feel responsible for what the world did in the 1940s.

So please, get over it.
The Beginning is Near!
User avatar
lorenzo
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2184
Joined: Sat 01 Jan 2005, 04:00:00

Unread postby JayHMorrison » Sat 19 Feb 2005, 12:50:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', '
')Europe is world leader in social cohesion,


Sounds great. Once you guys got rid of that "jewish question" I suppose social cohesion was much easier to achieve.


Hey man, that's a very vile way of discussing things. Get over the Second World War. That's ages ago. I don't feel responsible for what the world did in the 1940s.

So please, get over it.


My comment was merely a pointed way to demonstrate that if minority groups are minimized in a society, as happened in Europe during WWII, that makes social cohesion an easier thing to achieve afterwards. What is the white % in Scandanavian countries?

Whereas in the USA we encourage immigration. That is going to create quite a bit of conflict in our society in order to integrate these different groups. Considering the wide variation of groups represented in the USA and the freedom they each have to exert their rights, I think we are doing a decent job. Whereas in several European countries, they lack the tolerance to accept these outside ethnic groups. That underlying racism and intolerance is still very strong in Europe.
Make a man a fire and he will be warm for a day.
Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
User avatar
JayHMorrison
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 795
Joined: Thu 17 Jun 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Unknown
Top

Unread postby lorenzo » Sat 19 Feb 2005, 13:55:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', '
')Europe is world leader in social cohesion,


Sounds great. Once you guys got rid of that "jewish question" I suppose social cohesion was much easier to achieve.


Hey man, that's a very vile way of discussing things. Get over the Second World War. That's ages ago. I don't feel responsible for what the world did in the 1940s.

So please, get over it.


My comment was merely a pointed way to demonstrate that if minority groups are minimized in a society, as happened in Europe during WWII, that makes social cohesion an easier thing to achieve afterwards. What is the white % in Scandanavian countries?

Whereas in the USA we encourage immigration. That is going to create quite a bit of conflict in our society in order to integrate these different groups. Considering the wide variation of groups represented in the USA and the freedom they each have to exert their rights, I think we are doing a decent job. Whereas in several European countries, they lack the tolerance to accept these outside ethnic groups. That underlying racism and intolerance is still very strong in Europe.


Man, do you have any idea what you're talking about?

1. For starters, more people are immigrating to the EU than to the US. So there goes your big myth. Out of the door.

2. Racism may be latent in Europe, but it is the norm in the US. The USA is built on racism (it's only a few decades ago since blacks got civil rights, and they're already being threatened again).

3. The point is that the EU's political model is inclusivist, and embeds social cohesion as a policy. That's why we are called Well-fare States. We are the only true well-fare states on the planet, together with Japan and Canada. The US is based on another model, namely that of individualism and egoism. In Europe, social solidarity is embedded both in a political tradition and in a legal framework. And this is so because Europe is broadly Catholic (a religion which does not deny the social nature of people and the bonds of a community), whereas the USA's culture is based on Protestantism (a religion based on egotistical atomized individualist models of society).

The results are that in Europe:
-99,99% of citizens have excellent health care; in the US, 80 million people don't
-99,99% have excellent housing; in the US, you have millions of homeless people
-99,99% of European citizens enjoy the world's best education; while the US's educational system ranks below world average (according to the latest OECD report)
-99,99% have excellent social protection as employees, because of our codified tradition of negotiations between the social partners ( state, unions, civil society, employers), while in the US there's an all out war against such a system
-99,99% have all these benefits if they happen to fall into unemployment; in the US, you end up in the ghetto never to crawl out again


We're simply talking about two different views on society.


And about the Jews, since you started it: you were just as deep in it as European states; you looked away when Hitler offered you the opportunity to save Jews by accepting them to immigrate; you were not different than European states; you closed your doors, just like they did.

The Holocaust is not a European affair, it's a world affair with all of our forefathers to blame.
The Beginning is Near!
User avatar
lorenzo
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2184
Joined: Sat 01 Jan 2005, 04:00:00
Top

Unread postby JayHMorrison » Sat 19 Feb 2005, 16:18:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', '
')Man, do you have any idea what you're talking about?


Yes I do. You are just too liberal to realize it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', '
')1. For starters, more people are immigrating to the EU than to the US. So there goes your big myth. Out of the door.


Actually, Canada, Australia and the USA are widely considered to have the most open and inviting immigration. That is widely considered to be the advantage that the US Social Security system has because our population is actually growing, largely aided by immigration. Europe faces a demographic time bomb with a declining population that is not even held stable by immigration.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', '
')2. Racism may be latent in Europe, but it is the norm in the US. The USA is built on racism (it's only a few decades ago since blacks got civil rights, and they're already being threatened again).


Having lived in Germany for 2 years, I can assure you that racism in Europe is just as strong, if not stronger, than the USA. Racism cannot be quantified in numbers, but there are much stronger laws in the USA to protect the rights of minorities than anywhere else on the planet. We are so politically correct and walking on eggshells around the rights of women and blacks that it borders on absurd.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', '
')3. The point is that the EU's political model is inclusivist, and embeds social cohesion as a policy. That's why we are called Well-fare States. We are the only true well-fare states on the planet, together with Japan and Canada. The US is based on another model, namely that of individualism and egoism. In Europe, social solidarity is embedded both in a political tradition and in a legal framework. And this is so because Europe is broadly Catholic (a religion which does not deny the social nature of people and the bonds of a community), whereas the USA's culture is based on Protestantism (a religion based on egotistical atomized individualist models of society).


The EU is a socialist paradise. You have my complete agreement on that point. Strong labor unions, work only 35 hours per week, everyone has universal health care (even if you have to wait months for a critical procedure), 6 weeks of vacation, high taxes on businesses, lots of regulations, etc. It sounds like Europe is really prepared to compete with China and India where labor rates are 1/10 of European rates.

http://www.imagezilla.com/img.php?im=79 ... ialism.jpg

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', '
')And about the Jews, since you started it: you were just as deep in it as European states; you looked away when Hitler offered you the opportunity to save Jews by accepting them to immigrate; you were not different than European states; you closed your doors, just like they did.


Don't make my laugh. The USA did not kill 6 million Jews. Europeans did. Your countries happily shipped of their jews to Germany and let them be killed. Don't ever even attempt to compare the USA to the horrific actions of the Europeans in WWII. The USA led in the creation of Israel. The USA is the only defender of the state of Israel today. The anti-semetic European countries consistently side with the Arabs or abstain in votes on Israeli issues. If not for the USA, Israel likely would not exist today. Europe cannot even remotely make the same claim.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', '
')The Holocaust is not a European affair, it's a world affair with all of our forefathers to blame.

Selective revisionist history will get you nowhere. The Holocaust was first and foremost a European affair and you have nobody to blame but yourselves. Show some character and take responsibility for your own history instead of trying to lamely shift the blame.

The European leadership is so weak and full of Neville Chamberlain type of appeasers, that I have no doubt that their current efforts to keep Iran from going nuclear will fail. It will come down to the USA savings your butts again when you screw things up.

Leadership by committee never works. That is why the EU will never become a world power.
Make a man a fire and he will be warm for a day.
Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
User avatar
JayHMorrison
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 795
Joined: Thu 17 Jun 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Unknown
Top

Unread postby threadbear » Sat 19 Feb 2005, 19:39:54

Why Jaye, The horrific actions of the Europeans, during the war, mirror the potential that will be actualized in the USA real soon. They have it behind them. You have it ahead of you.

The way you demonize liberals proves the point. The liberal in the United States is in a similar position to Jews, in pre war Europe. They're on the run, and if you don't believe it, come to Canada. We meet them all the time. They're getting out when they can, before they're gassed.

Lorenzo, I feel when Americans criticize Europeans, it's because they're all jealous.
User avatar
threadbear
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7577
Joined: Sat 22 Jan 2005, 04:00:00

Unread postby lorenzo » Sat 19 Feb 2005, 20:28:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', '
')are widely considered


I don't care which myths you believe. I look at reality. The EU has more applications from immigrants, and accepts more immigrants than the US.

That's a fact. No matter what you believe.



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', 't')here are much stronger laws in the USA to protect the rights of minorities than anywhere else on the planet.


Another ridiculous myth. Read the European laws. Read the EU Constitution. Stop fantasizing.

And then a look at reality: participation of minorities in all sectors of life is far lower in the US than in the EU.

America is an exclusionist society, and the world's most unequal society. (5% of America's richest, own and control 70% of the resources; only Brazil scores worse, the paradize of injustice and inequality).

These are facts. No matter which myth you believe.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', '
')work only 35 hours per week


Indeed, we work to live, you live to work.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', '
')everyone has universal health care


Indeed, I feel sorry for you that you hate this great achievement so much. I know you prefer to have 80 million Americans without health care (it's a shame for any country that realistically wants to be taken serious as a "civilized" nation).


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', ' ')(even if you have to wait months for a critical procedure)

That is nowhere the case, only in the UK, the least European of all EU member states. For the rest, the EU has the best health care system in the world -- all experts agree on this; just check the World Health Organization's ranking.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', '
')6 weeks of vacation

In fact, I have 12 weeks of vacation, no debt, a nice house, a fine biodiesel car, and I'm not a neurotic -- most americans are because they're too stressed out to live (America thrives on prozac, drugs, obesity, sugar and fat -- and there are clear reasons for this).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', '
')high taxes on businesses

Of course, because taxes are good. Taxes make us the world's most prosperous region (just check the Human Development Index). Taxes are good - high taxes are better, because they stabilize society and make it prosperous for all. But this is clearly beyond your comprehension.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', '
')lots of regulations

What's wrong with regulations? Indeed, if a business wants to start up, it has to obey certain rules, because we consider our citizens to be more prescious than businesses. A business just can't come in and do whatever it wants, like in the US, where you can pollute, cheat, destroy life, make people's lives miserable as long as you have the cash and the connections. Not so in Europe. People before business. We love life. You love the corporation. Like a savage in the bush, you think that a mythical abstract deity (the corporation) is actually more important than people.
We Euros have evolved. We have left the primitive and superstitious logic of savages behind us.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', '
'), etc. It sounds like Europe is really prepared to compete with China and India where labor rates are 1/10 of European rates.

Aha, here we have the simplemindedness of the typical little American protestant profit-maximalizing grocer, threatening with cheap labor abroad, to which we all must bend, so that, sneakily, the little grocer can squeeze out more profits on the homefront. Europeans are smart people, we don't go with this little-man logic. We are grown up adults.

Labor is cheaper abroad, but we and our children are the brains of the world (America faces a disaster here, with it's below world average education, ruining an entire generation's chances of competing tomorrow), and they're the healthiest and the happiest. Three things you hate.


By the way, I predict a socialist president to win the American elections in 2016, when the middle class has been completely eroded and degraded to a grey obese mass of powerless consumers buying stuff from China only, and flipping burgers all day long (calling it a "job").



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', '
')The USA did not kill 6 million Jews.

That's not the point. The point is that the USA, together with the Europeans, was asked to accept the Jews. And you refused, like the rest of the Europeans. That's a simple historic fact. Ask any holocaust survivor.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', '
')I have no doubt that their current efforts to keep Iran from going nuclear will fail.

Look, the world can't stop laughing when an American, of all people !, tries to teach Europeans about politics.

As you know, and as history and the world have noticed, Europe was right about the WMD lies of your government.

You, mentally lazy Americans swallowed, we didn't. And we were right.

So now, we would appreciate it, if, in the future, you'd spend some time listening to the truth, then you could help us when it really matters.

Now you wasted all your energy on an illegal war in Iraq, based on lies, while you could have spent that energy in doing something good for the world.

In short, never forget it: you're an American, you have no credibility when talking about international politics.



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', '
')It will come down to the USA savings your butts again when you screw things up.

When, if I may ask, have you ever saved *anyone's* butt? You are like a primitive savage, believing all kinds of hallucinations and myths. You have never saved anyone's butt. On the contrary, I would say.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', '
')That is why the EU will never become a world power.

But we already are far more powerful than the US! We simply don't bragg about it. (And that's why you don't even see it).
We rule on basically all fronts: economically we're the biggest bloc on the planet, we dominate world trade, we are world leader in environmental matters (these are real global challenges, not fake American ones), we are world leader in life, well being, sociality, happiness, health, education, and international politics.

Without Europe, nothing on this planet moves.

The time when power was measured by the amount of bombs you throw on third world countries, is definitely over. That's why the USA is the past.
Last edited by lorenzo on Sat 19 Feb 2005, 20:43:01, edited 3 times in total.
The Beginning is Near!
User avatar
lorenzo
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2184
Joined: Sat 01 Jan 2005, 04:00:00
Top

Unread postby maverickdoc » Sat 19 Feb 2005, 20:36:16

JayHMorrison wrote:
there are much stronger laws in the USA to protect the rights of minorities than anywhere else on the planet.

jay have you seen Abu garib, what about guantanimo bay, Afghanistan, patriot act. Yea the US really knows how to protect human rights. EU should take some lessons form us :)
User avatar
maverickdoc
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 722
Joined: Wed 12 Jan 2005, 04:00:00

Unread postby lorenzo » Sat 19 Feb 2005, 20:38:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('maverickdoc', 'J')ayHMorrison wrote:
there are much stronger laws in the USA to protect the rights of minorities than anywhere else on the planet.

jay have you seen Abu garib, what about guantanimo bay, Afghanistan, patriot act. Yea the US really knows how to protect human rights. EU should take some lessons form us :)


Exactly. Americans always say they protect rights of citizens and minorities, but in reality, they never do. When a profit can be squeezed out somewhere, but rights are blocking it, the rigths go out the door, not the profits.

Let's not forget that Saddam Hussein was America's best friend; Reagan taught Saddam how to gass Kurds, Rumsfeld sold him the chemicals himself.

Americans are only interested in democracy, human rights and life, if it suits their own power agenda. If reality stands in its way, it will not hesitate to assassinate democratically elected leaders, it will cause civil wars, organize terror campaigns, destroy democracies and put friendly dictators in place.

There are hundreds of examples of this.


It's called hypocrisy. And the world agrees: it's the essence of the American way of doing things.
The Beginning is Near!
User avatar
lorenzo
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2184
Joined: Sat 01 Jan 2005, 04:00:00
Top

Unread postby threadbear » Sat 19 Feb 2005, 21:28:24

One hardly needs to enter Abu Ghraib to witness how America treats the vulnerable. Just walk into any maximum security prison in the prison industrial complex and talk to those incarcerated for minor marijuana felonies and ask them how they enjoyed being gang raped upon THEIR arrival.

Jaye, That could be your kid! But it's okay, because you don't have to look at it, the mainstream news doesn't cover it. You don't live in that America.

There are plenty of great Americans, wise people, over half I'd say. The others are delusional narcissistic windbags.
User avatar
threadbear
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7577
Joined: Sat 22 Jan 2005, 04:00:00

Unread postby Dragondrummer » Sun 20 Feb 2005, 01:15:17

Jay M,

"Actually, Canada, Australia and the USA are widely considered to have the most open and inviting immigration"

As an Australian currently attempting to obtain Oz citizenship for my Indian wife, I assure you Australia is NOT an open and inviting country - it is a redneck and racist one. This global myth needs to be blown ASAP.

"We are so politically correct and walking on eggshells around the rights of women and blacks that it borders on absurd"

The US is living proof that lip service in support of minorities does absolutely nothing to assist the plight of minorities. Having lived and worked in Compton and Nice, I assure you that all the eggshell walking in the world will not right the wrongs of racism Amerikan style.
User avatar
Dragondrummer
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun 14 Nov 2004, 04:00:00

Unread postby 0mar » Sun 20 Feb 2005, 03:38:39

This thread should be renamed to "Battle of the cliched stereotypes"
Joseph Stalin
"It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything. "
User avatar
0mar
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1499
Joined: Tue 12 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Davis, California

Unread postby jaakkeli » Sun 20 Feb 2005, 06:59:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', '
')Yes I do. You are just too liberal to realize it.


This is ridiculous. You just started flaming needlessly, repeating every possible silly American legend about Europe (even if you believe in one or two, you can't possible be dumb enough to believe all of them, so you must be simply flaming).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')on't make my laugh. The USA did not kill 6 million Jews. Europeans did. Your countries happily shipped of their jews to Germany and let them be killed.


My country did not ship single one of its Jews to Germany. All Finnish Jews that died during WWII died of Soviet bullets, many of which were given to a murderous communist dictatorship by the US at a time when a democracy was told that the USA doesn't sell weapons to countries at war.

Blaming all the countries of Europe for the Holocaust makes as little sense as blaming the world for it and demanding at some Togolese guy to feel responsible over the persecution of Jews. (Note: if it turns out that the Togolese had some role in the Holocaust that I didn't know about, I take that back and replace the Togolese with, say, Australian aboriginals or the Inuit.)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he USA led in the creation of Israel.


Um, no it didn't, the UK did. And I'm not sure what that's supposed to tell, anyway - Stalin had a big role in the creation of Israel, so was he a good person? Let's also remember why the West was so interested in helping Israel: they didn't want so many Jews in their own countries. Stalin actually gets a cleaner slate: he offered the Jews a piece of his own country (the place, in eastern Russia, is still officially a Jewish region).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he USA is the only defender of the state of Israel today.


Yes, even when Israel does something that shouldn't be defended. The unconditional US support for Israel is not a show of moral high ground, it is utterly condemnable.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he anti-semetic European countries consistently side with the Arabs or abstain in votes on Israeli issues.

Yeah, I like to be lectured about anti-Semitism by someone who can't even spell anti-Semitism. And I know, it's terrible when every country in the world except the US and Israel consistently "sides with the Arabs". Damn those anti-Semitic Togolese! Have they forgotten their role in the Holocaust?!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')elective revisionist history will get you nowhere.

Now look who's talking...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Holocaust was first and foremost a European affair and you have nobody to blame but yourselves.

No, it was an affair of some, but not all European countries. I could say that the Holocaust was first and foremost a Christian affair, to blame the Americans, but would that make any sense? It was an affair of one Christian country, not all (although almost all were virulently anti-Semitic at that time - including the US, but not really Finland; Finns were too busy hating the russkies to notice the Jews).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he European leadership is so weak and full of Neville Chamberlain type of appeasers, that I have no doubt that their current efforts to keep Iran from going nuclear will fail.

Yet another strange double standard - why does the US think it has some divine right to decide who gets to own nukes and who doesn't? Why can the US own nukes, but Muslim countries can't? Why doesn't the US say anything about Israel's nukes? If Iran wants a nuke, it can get one, for all I care, even though I'm actually on moral high ground here (Finland has sworn off WMDs). The US should either scrap its own nukes or stop blaming others for wanting them. Anything else is ridiculous hypocrisy.
User avatar
jaakkeli
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu 10 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Finland
Top

Unread postby jaakkeli » Sun 20 Feb 2005, 07:49:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'T')he way you demonize liberals proves the point. The liberal in the United States is in a similar position to Jews, in pre war Europe.


No, actually they're in the same position as liberals in pre-war Germany. Remember, anti-liberalism is the central tenent of fascism; liberals were the first target of the Nazis, even more important than the Jews. The accusations were exactly the same. The insufficient patriotism of some people had made Germany vulnerable. The liberals were sympathetic to the Jews (like in today's America liberals are routinely "accused" of being sympathetic to the Muslims). The liberals defended degenerate arts and deviants like homosexuals and suffragettes (ie. feminists of the time) whose attacks on traditional values had made Germany weak. Liberals defended the freedom of speech of dangerous unpatriotic people. And so on.

There's no need to seek any analogies. It's just the same thing all over again.

Of course, the scary thing is to remember how in the 1930s the Nazis reached power through the Weimar Republic's incurable economical problems. As everyone in peakoil.com should know, our economies are again going to go down the toilet pretty soon... :?
User avatar
jaakkeli
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu 10 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Finland
Top

Unread postby jaakkeli » Sun 20 Feb 2005, 08:31:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', 'I')n Europe, social solidarity is embedded both in a political tradition and in a legal framework. And this is so because Europe is broadly Catholic (a religion which does not deny the social nature of people and the bonds of a community), whereas the USA's culture is based on Protestantism (a religion based on egotistical atomized individualist models of society).


Eh, no. The Nordic countries are Lutheran (at least nominally - Sweden might actually have an atheist plurality) and all very, very strongly egalitarian and about the most liberal and "socialist" places you can find. We like to imagine that we invented the welfare state and recently the south has started to make some moves towards a similar model. :-D I haven't met anyone who thinks it has something to do with religion, least of all Catholicism.
User avatar
jaakkeli
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu 10 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Finland
Top

Unread postby JayHMorrison » Sun 20 Feb 2005, 10:45:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', '
')Another ridiculous myth. Read the European laws. Read the EU Constitution. Stop fantasizing.


The EU does not have a constitution. :-)

Lorenzo, the rest of your drivel is not even worth debating. We are on such opposite ends of the spectrum that this is largely pointless.
Make a man a fire and he will be warm for a day.
Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
User avatar
JayHMorrison
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 795
Joined: Thu 17 Jun 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Unknown
Top

Unread postby lorenzo » Sun 20 Feb 2005, 11:08:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', '
')
The EU does not have a constitution. :-)


I invite you to read the EU Constitution, here.

And for your information, the Spanish people have just massively voted "Sí". We all will.

Europe is now the world's most progressive, modern, free and democratic political body on the planet, whereas the USA is rapidly becoming a zombie nation thriving on superstition, human rights abuses, divine ignorance, the military-industrial-media complex, obesity and prozac. (Omar, cliches are always true).

Europe, land of the free.
The Beginning is Near!
User avatar
lorenzo
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2184
Joined: Sat 01 Jan 2005, 04:00:00
Top

Unread postby JayHMorrison » Sun 20 Feb 2005, 11:28:44

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnf ... 3_7879.htm

• And assuming current demographic and economic trends continue, the European Union's share of total global output will shrink from 18% today to 10% in 2050. Japan's share would decline from 8% to 4%.
Make a man a fire and he will be warm for a day.
Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
User avatar
JayHMorrison
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 795
Joined: Thu 17 Jun 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Unknown

Unread postby lorenzo » Sun 20 Feb 2005, 11:50:20

Rifkin's international best-seller has now sold over 1 million copies:

The European Dream: How Europe's Vision of the Future Is Quietly Eclipsing the American Dream

And there's no stopping the EU's unification and rise to power either:

The United States Of Europe: The New Superpower and the End of American Supremacy

"While the United States flexes its economic and military muscles around the world as the dominant global player, it may soon have company. According to the Washington Post's T.R. Reid, the nations of Europe are setting aside differences to form an entity that's gaining strength, all seemingly unbeknownst to the U.S. and its citizens. The new Europe, Reid says, "has more people, more wealth, and more trade than the United States of America," plus more leverage gained through membership in international organizations and generous foreign aid policies that reap political clout. Reid tells how European countries were willing to discontinue their individual centuries-old currencies and adopt the Euro, the monetary unit that is now a dominant force in world markets. This is noteworthy not just for exploring the considerable economic impact of the Euro, but also for what that spirit of cooperation means for every facet of Europe in the 21st century, where governments and citizens alike believe that the rewards of banding together are worth a loss in sovereignty. Reid's most compelling portrait of this trend is in the young Europeans known as "Generation E" who see themselves not as Spaniards or Czechs but simply as Europeans. To illustrate America's obliviousness to this trend, Reid tells of former GE CEO Jack Welch, who never bothered to factor European objections into a proposed multi-billion dollar merger with Honeywell, leading to the deal being torpedoed and Welch disgraced. But what is most striking in The United States of Europe is the contrast between the new Europe and the United States. The Europeans cannot match the raw military size of the U.S., but by mixing wealth with diplomacy and continental unity (helped along by antipathy toward George W. Bush's brand of Americanism), they are forming an innovative and powerful superpower. --John Moe"

In May 2004, the European Union has added ten new member states-including Poland, the Czech Republic, and Hungary, among others-to become a union of twenty-five nations. While this might seem a fairly innocuous and minute shift of political semantics for most Americans, the enlargement will increase the population of the EU to 450 million citizens, making it larger (in population) and richer (in GDP) than the United States-not to mention that the EU has more trade than the United States and more votes on the UN Security Council and all other international organizations. This New Europe is determined to flex its political and economic muscle on the world stage. The Continent has moved much further than most Americans realize toward the dream of a "United States of Europe," to borrow Winston Churchill's term.

T. R. Reid's The United States of Europe lays bare the ways in which the EU is positioning itself to be a global counterweight and second superpower, on equal footing with the U.S.A. Reid traces the rise of the EU from the days when Churchill and other visionaries set out in the post-World War II rubble to find a means to end war in Europe. He shows how this remarkably successful effort to "create peace" also created a global economic and political power that is often at odds with the United States. This drive toward unity has been accelerated by the powerful mood of anti-Americanism (or, at least, anti-Bushism) that has swept the Continent since the war in Iraq.

In addition to the political ramifications of the EU, The United States of Europe shows the great impact this alliance is having on the global economic market. The euro, which now has more daily users than the dollar, is fast becoming a reserve currency and a new standard for global finance, a globally recognized replacement for the once-almighty dollar. Unification has spawned a generation of European corporate managers who have led firms like Nokia, Airbus, BP, Vodafone, and Red Bull to catch and surpass their U.S. competitors in global markets.

The European Union, from its beginnings as an experiment in statecraft, has rapidly emerged as a resounding success; yet Americans have so far managed to ignore the geopolitical revolution under way across the Atlantic. Reid's book shows how quietly-and not so quietly-Europe is developing itself into an economic, political, and cultural powerhouse.
The Beginning is Near!
User avatar
lorenzo
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2184
Joined: Sat 01 Jan 2005, 04:00:00

Unread postby lotrfan55345 » Sun 20 Feb 2005, 14:29:57

The difference between the US and the EU:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/f ... 276545.stm

... more fuel for the flame(fest)
lotrfan55345
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1091
Joined: Tue 20 Jul 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Minneapolis / Pittsburgh

PreviousNext

Return to North America Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests