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The Bloom Box: An Energy Breakthrough?

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.
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Re: The Bloom Box: An Energy Breakthrough?

Postby shortonsense » Mon 22 Feb 2010, 10:02:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'T')he clever monkeys that CREATED the problems are somehow going to FIX the problems.


Sure. Why not? Certainly we can't turn civilization over to domesticated cats and dogs and figure that they'll fix it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')Sort of like how when corporations CAUSE problems, like cancer and other health problems due to pollution, ANOTHER corporation can profit from the resources people have to expend to treat said problem.


This circle of bad thing, good thing, behavioral change thing has been going on for some time. Clean Air Act? Clean Water Act? Endangered Species Act?

All reactions to runaway issues which required us to do more work so we don't do more stupid stuff. We'll get better at it as time goes on, we only invented some of these things 40 years ago.
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Re: The Bloom Box: An Energy Breakthrough?

Postby rangerone314 » Mon 22 Feb 2010, 10:31:39

And given "clever monkey's" proclivity towards messing with things they don't understand and trying to move quickly before they understand things (think "Titanic" traveling too quickly towards an iceberg instead of traveling more slowly), it is just a matter of time before a real catastrophy occurs.

I can just see some clever monkey finally coming up with something like "strangelets" as a solution for energy problems, and destroying the whole planet.

Or a genetically-engineered "harmless" bacteria to eat up petroleum spills that ends being more destructive than "The Stand".

If humanity was really "clever", it would figure out how to look before leaping. The "Titanic" is such a great meme for demonstrating human hubris. With our now Global civilization, the entire Earth is the Titanic, and we are manufacturing out OWN icebergs.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

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Re: The Bloom Box: An Energy Breakthrough?

Postby SeaGypsy » Mon 22 Feb 2010, 10:58:51

So anyay guys, did anyone see the show on 60 minutes yet?
I believe it has aired by now? I have been hanging on the edge of my seat since Friday and I am in Australia on Monday night now, Reviews please?
:)
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Re: The Bloom Box: An Energy Breakthrough?

Postby AirlinePilot » Mon 22 Feb 2010, 14:37:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'W')hat consumer in their right might mind would convert a car without fueling station network, but what station owner would construct a fueling station without a market.


BINGO! And I'd add to that who wants to try that in this particular recession??
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Re: The Bloom Box: An Energy Breakthrough?

Postby AirlinePilot » Mon 22 Feb 2010, 14:40:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonsense', '1')5 years of supply arriving last month.


And the logic you choose completely fails because there is no measure of what the production rate of those 15 years of resource will be. It IS about flow rates and production capability, you just haven't been hit upside the head with it yet..not quite....but it's coming.
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Re: The Bloom Box: An Energy Breakthrough?

Postby TheAntiDoomer » Mon 22 Feb 2010, 14:53:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AirlinePilot', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonsense', '1')5 years of supply arriving last month.


And the logic you choose completely fails because there is no measure of what the production rate of those 15 years of resource will be. It IS about flow rates and production capability, you just haven't been hit upside the head with it yet..not quite....but it's coming.


such hubris AP, meanwhile, back on topic, thiks link has the video embedded for those who have not seen the report yet:


Bloom Box could be the magical fuel cell that saves the world

http://dvice.com/archives/2010/02/bloom-box-could.php

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')ive to ten years from now, you could have a $3000 fuel cell power generator the size of a clock radio in your basement, turning natural gas into electrical power at twice the efficiency possible today. That's the promise of the Bloom Box, a tiny power plant that combines oxygen and natural gas, a biogas or solar energy, and creates electricity.

So far, Bloom Boxes are the size of about four refrigerators, costing $700,000 to $800,000. Early adopters are companies such as eBay and Google, already saving money using these boxes. But the founder of the secretive Bloom Energy, K.R. Sridhar, says that the cheap materials inside and the inherent efficiency and his design could change the world, bringing cheap energy to everyone in a box that will cost less than $3000.
"The human ability to innovate out of a jam is profound.That’s why Darwin will always be right, and Malthus will always be wrong.” -K.R. Sridhar


Do I make you Corny? :)

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Re: The Bloom Box: An Energy Breakthrough?

Postby yesplease » Mon 22 Feb 2010, 15:07:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'i') would think the bigger question is what are they made of? If it's another platinum deal like other fuel cells then it's not going to fly. If they are made of common materials then they will soar. Look forward to the answers.
No platinum AFAIK, just ceramics, some sort of cheapish alloy, and a proprietary ink.
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Re: The Bloom Box: An Energy Breakthrough?

Postby yesplease » Mon 22 Feb 2010, 15:17:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'Y')ou still have utilities, in the form of natural gas suppliers. Or do you think everybody's going to have high-pressure hydrogen tanks on premises, filled by lossy electrolysis driven by wind and solar?
It depends on how much these things cost versus what batteries would cost, assuming the people went w/o a grid connection. If this FC is cheap enough, say $3000 like they mentioned, and will last a couple decades, then even if the levelized cost of energy from solar panels is doubled or tripled due to converting electricity to hydrogen and back to electricity, it may still be cheaper than batteries. Time will tell.
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Re: The Bloom Box: An Energy Breakthrough?

Postby TheAntiDoomer » Mon 22 Feb 2010, 15:17:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'i') would think the bigger question is what are they made of? If it's another platinum deal like other fuel cells then it's not going to fly. If they are made of common materials then they will soar. Look forward to the answers.
No platinum AFAIK, just ceramics, some sort of cheapish alloy, and a proprietary ink.



That is what I have read/heard as well. The core is made entirely of a ceramic made from beach sand, while both sides are coated with a propeitary ink. All ingrediates are available in abundance. What a concept :)
"The human ability to innovate out of a jam is profound.That’s why Darwin will always be right, and Malthus will always be wrong.” -K.R. Sridhar


Do I make you Corny? :)

"expect 8$ gas on 08/08/08" - Prognosticator
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Re: The Bloom Box: An Energy Breakthrough?

Postby JJ » Mon 22 Feb 2010, 15:23:22

test
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Re: The Bloom Box: An Energy Breakthrough?

Postby TheAntiDoomer » Mon 22 Feb 2010, 15:43:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheAntiDoomer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'i') would think the bigger question is what are they made of? If it's another platinum deal like other fuel cells then it's not going to fly. If they are made of common materials then they will soar. Look forward to the answers.
No platinum AFAIK, just ceramics, some sort of cheapish alloy, and a proprietary ink.



That is what I have read/heard as well. The core is made entirely of a ceramic made from beach sand, while both sides are coated with a propeitary ink. All ingrediates are available in abundance. What a concept :)
Maybe propeitary is a secret word for platinum? You didn't mean proprietary? :razz:


Sorry Pee, the inventor specifically said absolutly no platinum or any other precious or rare metals are involved.
"The human ability to innovate out of a jam is profound.That’s why Darwin will always be right, and Malthus will always be wrong.” -K.R. Sridhar


Do I make you Corny? :)

"expect 8$ gas on 08/08/08" - Prognosticator
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Re: The Bloom Box: An Energy Breakthrough?

Postby yesplease » Mon 22 Feb 2010, 16:24:18

You sure it wasn't the Zyklon-B you seem so fond of?
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Re: The Bloom Box: An Energy Breakthrough?

Postby lper100km » Mon 22 Feb 2010, 16:38:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheAntiDoomer', '
')Bloom Box could be the magical fuel cell that saves the world

You’re not too sure about that, are you? Anything that has magic as an adjective has an air of desperation about it.

I see all the current interest in this product and I’m not sure why this one is any better than any other fuel cell although it is better than using elemental hydrogen. There’s at least 21 different types according to Wikipedia. Bloom has raised a lot of money – $400m – which may or may not mean something. There are some high profile users, which may or may not mean something. Did Google, Amazon, eBay etc but them or were they delivered as test stations? What about the others cell manufacturers?

On the other hand, there’s remarkably little hard information. For instance, what is the energy conversion efficiency? Is it more efficient to convert the inherent energy in the gas to electricity or will the gas generate more energy by burning it? The cell still consumes oxygen so must emit some other form of carbon/oxygen gaseous compound. What voltage is being delivered? AC or DC? Why is it even a consideration that people can manage something as complex as an electrical generator in their backyard? There’s this talk of trashing the electrical distribution grid. Fat chance. You’ll get a gas grid though.

Uses sand? What kind? There are many variations - check Wiki

All little bits of information, but nothing cohesive that any one can make an informed opinion on what this product is all about much less prognosticate about it's future.
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Re: The Bloom Box: An Energy Breakthrough?

Postby SeaGypsy » Mon 22 Feb 2010, 16:56:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'i') would think the bigger question is what are they made of? If it's another platinum deal like other fuel cells then it's not going to fly. If they are made of common materials then they will soar. Look forward to the answers.
No platinum AFAIK, just ceramics, some sort of cheapish alloy, and a proprietary ink.


I am a glassmaker by profession, I know a lot about sand/ silica. The highest grade silica in the world is mined in Cape York on the northernmost tip of Australia, it is 99.9%+ pure. There are many other sites around the world with 98% plus pure silica sands. To make a very pure silica wafer like in the bloom box, is not particularly difficult. Pyrex is the most pure silica glass made commonly, It has less than 1% residual flux and is over 98% pure silica. It is made by melting silica powder at almost double the temperature of flux glass (the stuff we use for most things glass is used for). From the appearance of Bloom's wafer, it may be the next level of purity up from Pyrex glass, which does require some flux to allow translucense. As translucense appears not to be necessary, I am guessing this is what the wafers are.
If indeed these people are being honest, this will change the world dramaticly, there is no shortage of 98% pure silica or of common metals in the amounts it appears would be required for this system. The savings in terms of grid manufacture and maintenance would easily displace this use.
In 1984 my high school paid $15,000 for an IBM computer with a 256 meg memory that one had to communicate in code with. A teachers wage back then was $30,000.
I bought a new laptop a few weeks ago with 260 gig memory for a weeks pay.
That's not rocket science.
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Re: The Bloom Box: An Energy Breakthrough?

Postby TheAntiDoomer » Mon 22 Feb 2010, 17:20:21

^good post seagypsey thanks!

What is the Bloom Box? Does it work? Bloom Energy Could Change the World

http://blog.mapawatt.com/2010/02/20/wha ... the-world/

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat are the Challenges of the Bloom Box?

Sridhar claims to have found an affordable way to manufacture his technology. Traditional fuel cells require the use of rare-earth metals such as platinum or palladium for the catalyst that helps drive the reaction. In order to make his system affordable and prolific, he must come up with a new type of catalyst that is abundant and affordable.

If Sridhar has found the “holy grail” of energy storage and generation, how will he keep it from being duplicated by anyone and every one in the world? Hopefully, Bloom has patents on the technology. I have to believe that Doerr would not have made such a large investment in the company if he didn’t believe they would be able to capitalize on the technology at least for a long enough period of time to make his investment worthwhile.

In a Nutshell?

I am optimistic. There appears to be a great mind behind the technology and it has been peer-reviewed by great minds in the technology investment industry. Not only was this peer-review positive, one of the greatest technology investors has backed up his review with a gargantuan investment of funds and resources.
"The human ability to innovate out of a jam is profound.That’s why Darwin will always be right, and Malthus will always be wrong.” -K.R. Sridhar


Do I make you Corny? :)

"expect 8$ gas on 08/08/08" - Prognosticator
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Re: The Bloom Box: An Energy Breakthrough?

Postby kublikhan » Mon 22 Feb 2010, 18:40:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')here are some high profile users, which may or may not mean something. Did Google, Amazon, eBay etc but them or were they delivered as test stations? What about the others cell manufacturers?

On the other hand, there’s remarkably little hard information. For instance, what is the energy conversion efficiency? Is it more efficient to convert the inherent energy in the gas to electricity or will the gas generate more energy by burning it?
The customers bought them, they were not test units. However California provided substantial subsidies so they only had to pay half price for the units. As it stands now, these units are expensive, more expensive than solar. However they claim they can dramatically reduce the cost with economies of scale. They claim this unit can produce twice as much electricity as burning the equivalent amount of natural gas in a traditional natural gas power plant.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n order to make his system affordable and prolific, he must come up with a new type of catalyst that is abundant and affordable.
Ummm, hasn't this been the problem with fuel cells for decades, rare and expensive catalysts? So he's not using rare-earth metals but is using some other secret and expensive catalyst. Then this is not really the revolutionary breakthrough in fuel cells that we needed to make them affordable and mass produced.
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