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Anger at past generations

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: Anger at past generations

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 29 Mar 2010, 07:43:11

Sure, the ideas of Peak Oil are depressing. But we have to remember for most of us they are just ideas. For most of us, nothing bad is happening right now due to Peak Oil. If we get so wound up in ideas that reality has no joy for us, we're probably suffering from a serious mental illness.

I'm not a psychologist but I do have mental illness, and I know the effort it takes to avoid getting despondent about ideas. I spend a lot of time reminding myself they are just ideas, not reality.

Having spent a huge chunk of my life miserable with untreated depression, I have strong feelings about this subject. It's a shame if someone wastes their life being miserable. :(
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Re: Anger at past generations

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 29 Mar 2010, 10:08:46

I have always been confused that one can understand peak oil and the big picture of overshoot at the same time as feeling resentment at being a product of the same phenomenon.

Being present in the age of consequences puts you in the fortunate position of departing from your grandparents ignorant position and becoming proactive. What could be more of a blessing?

The source of your resentment is that you want also what they have and you can't have it. That is not a very noble position and in fact makes you even more culpable than your grandparents. Because you know better.
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Re: Anger at past generations

Unread postby Arthur75 » Mon 29 Mar 2010, 11:21:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')
The source of your resentment is that you want also what they have and you can't have it. That is not a very noble position and in fact makes you even more culpable than your grandparents. Because you know better.



I wouldn't say so, for me when I have this resentment, and I sometime clearly have it, the source is the fact that today is just too late, too many things and bad decisions done : take infrastructures and urbanism for instance.
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Re: Anger at past generations

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 29 Mar 2010, 11:42:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Arthur75', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')
The source of your resentment is that you want also what they have and you can't have it. That is not a very noble position and in fact makes you even more culpable than your grandparents. Because you know better.



I wouldn't say so, for me when I have this resentment, and I sometime clearly have it, the source is the fact that today is just too late, too many things and bad decisions done : take infrastructures and urbanism for instance.


Try to consider that the position to wish for a different reality than what we have is actually a symptom of the self entitlement that got us where we are. In the case of modern humans in the 21st century we have to accept the reality that we are here where we are because we haven't been able to mitigate without suffering the consequences. When you strip away all the resentment, wishful thinking, imagining what could have been if we did this or that etc. etc. then you are left with having to deal with the cards that have been dealt us.

It isn't too late. That is a bullshit sentiment. The "bad" decisions that have gotten us here aren't bad or good. They are what they are. Now deal with it. The glass is still half full. Understand that all the "bad" things done are actually catalysts today for change. Embrace them.

Things are fucked up. Yes. I am grateful they are for all that is dysfunctional has now become our greatest ally in finally moving the paradigm shift forward.

That is the most optimistic spin you can do and it is great for your mental health to embrace this. Try it.
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Re: Anger at past generations

Unread postby Arthur75 » Mon 29 Mar 2010, 13:08:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')
Try to consider that the position to wish for a different reality than what we have is actually a symptom of the self entitlement that got us where we are. In the case of modern humans in the 21st century we have to accept the reality that we are here where we are because we haven't been able to mitigate without suffering the consequences. When you strip away all the resentment, wishful thinking, imagining what could have been if we did this or that etc. etc. then you are left with having to deal with the cards that have been dealt us.

It isn't too late. That is a bullshit sentiment. The "bad" decisions that have gotten us here aren't bad or good. They are what they are. Now deal with it. The glass is still half full. Understand that all the "bad" things done are actually catalysts today for change. Embrace them.

Things are fucked up. Yes. I am grateful they are for all that is dysfunctional has now become our greatest ally in finally moving the paradigm shift forward.

That is the most optimistic spin you can do and it is great for your mental health to embrace this. Try it.



My answer was regarding your interpretation of the original poster resentment, that it would be based on his generation not having what the previous had, which by reading him doesn't seem the case to me.

After about my own, I'm not a big fan of "psychological rule of thumb" ;) , and it's not permanent, but I do indeed think that a lot of bad decisions have been taken, and that the shouting was there regarding them (in fact even way before, in litterature for instance), and overall it might indeed very well be too late, but I got used to a "doubt position", doesn't mean I'm not willing to try or do things.
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Re: Anger at past generations

Unread postby efarmer » Mon 29 Mar 2010, 20:03:13

I don't think it's fair to use names, so I will just use initials. "A" was doing fine, nice place to live,
good times, etc. etc. It was "E" that just had to have the apple, "A" is good company, attentive,
and built like a masonry comfort station, but no, "S" tells "E" to take a bite of the apple and
then everything went sideways and they were out on their cold butts with the shivers and
the gimme's jumping in their brains like toads on a hot rock.

I know it is old news, but it still gripes my ass to no end...

This is why I am so jammed up today, if this were Clue, I'd call the game.
It was "E" with the apple, in the garden, and "S" was a co-conspirator.
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Re: Anger at past generations

Unread postby highlander » Tue 30 Mar 2010, 13:13:28

Too funny efarmer! :lol:
This is where everybody puts profound words written by another...or not so profound words written by themselves
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Re: Anger at past generations

Unread postby Ayame » Wed 31 Mar 2010, 01:58:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', ' ')Being present in the age of consequences puts you in the fortunate position of departing from your grandparents ignorant position and becoming proactive. What could be more of a blessing?


Yes grass roots movement it must be as our wonder leaders are inisistant on putting their heads in the sand.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', ' ')The source of your resentment is that you want also what they have and you can't have it. That is not a very noble position and in fact makes you even more culpable than your grandparents. Because you know better.


I am not quite sure what you are referring to here but if you mean material things then I am not a materialistic person. I don't need a tv, playsation etc. These things don't make a person happy anyway. If you are referring to community then yes I would like a community. Community has broken down here in the UK, there is no community. If you are referring to stability then yes I would like stability. What I know that I don't want is to be staring down the barrel of the biggest SHTF fest that humans have ever seen, which is where we seem to be at. It will be different from wars, in wars at least you knew who you could count, who was with you. Peak oil will see nations imploding, civil unrest as suddenly there are just too many people all wanting a piece of a shrinking pie.
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Re: Anger at past generations

Unread postby Comp_Lex » Fri 02 Apr 2010, 18:47:46

Don't be angry at those people. They just didn't / don't have access to a lot of information like we do now.
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Re: Anger at past generations

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 02 Apr 2010, 19:57:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayame', '
')I am not quite sure what you are referring to here but if you mean material things then I am not a materialistic person. I don't need a tv, playsation etc. These things don't make a person happy anyway. If you are referring to community then yes I would like a community. Community has broken down here in the UK, there is no community. If you are referring to stability then yes I would like stability. What I know that I don't want is to be staring down the barrel of the biggest SHTF fest that humans have ever seen, which is where we seem to be at. It will be different from wars, in wars at least you knew who you could count, who was with you. Peak oil will see nations imploding, civil unrest as suddenly there are just too many people all wanting a piece of a shrinking pie.


As last poster said, don't be angry at your forefathers because they really didn't understand what was coming. Just imagine had you been born in the boom period post WWII. How could you have reacted differently considering the optimism of the times and the fact that we are social animals.

Your points above put you ahead of the curve. You would like the community and security of what your grandparents had. Both of those were eroded because of our consumption culture. Security during the age of consequences will unfortunately not be available to us for the next few decades. That forces us into a more immediate focused frame of mind, appreciating every day, valuing your friendships, community, electric lights and chicken soup.

Since the security is beyond our control because this is a systemic overshoot problem then this really gets you off the hook. Why be fearful if we can no longer count on security? This is actually very liberating.

Have you ever been to Switzerland? The most secure country with the most secure society and yet with people who are the most paranoid and insecure and fearful.

The more you have the more you fear what you can lose.

If you don't have it any more this can be liberating.......brutal also, unfair, unjust, violent, agressive, break down......

but if the status quo becomes unstable then you can throw the assumption of stability out the window.

That rewards you with appreciating every day, every minute, every joke with a friend, every kiss, every bit of an apple.

That is how our species existed for 98% of their history

Enjoy these times
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Re: Anger at past generations

Unread postby mos6507 » Fri 02 Apr 2010, 23:06:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')Why be fearful if we can no longer count on security? This is actually very liberating.


IMHO, you're just issuing spin-control.

I think people have a right to express grief and suffering and not be shamed into repressing it in favor of some sort of new fatalistic paradigm in which we're supposed to just abandon all our aspirations and learn to love living nasty, brutish, short, existential lives.
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Re: Anger at past generations

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 03 Apr 2010, 00:33:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')Why be fearful if we can no longer count on security? This is actually very liberating.


IMHO, you're just issuing spin-control.

I think people have a right to express grief and suffering and not be shamed into repressing it in favor of some sort of new fatalistic paradigm in which we're supposed to just abandon all our aspirations and learn to love living nasty, brutish, short, existential lives.


You actually read my last post and interpret this as fatalistic. That's curious. Why is accepting that our cultural environment will be unstable for the next few decades necessarily fatalistic? I happen to see that instability as planting the seeds of more community and more personal integrity and resourcefulness. How can this be fatalistic?
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Re: Anger at past generations

Unread postby mos6507 » Sat 03 Apr 2010, 01:05:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')I happen to see that instability as planting the seeds of more community and more personal integrity and resourcefulness.


Every cloud has a silver lining, but a cloud is still a cloud. That's all. Peak shrink goes off on this a bit when she talked about panglossian disorder. It's certainly possible to adopt a positive attitude in the face of adversity. I think it's still OK to feel miserable, though. It's part of the human condition. Trying to pretend a bad situation isn't really bad can be a form of repression or personal delusion. Kind of like the Black Knight who denies he's getting hacked to pieces in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

My feeling is that only from the comfort of the pregame show, behind our keyboards, can we frame collapse in such positive terms. When we're actually living it day-to-day, it will be much harder to stay positive. That's not to say we'll all get into the fetal position and die. Those of us who have spent years mulling over collapse will probably be better able to cope. But it won't be any joyride. All that extra community, organic food, etc... will come at a very high cost in other areas.
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Re: Anger at past generations

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 03 Apr 2010, 06:45:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', ' ')When we're actually living it day-to-day, it will be much harder to stay positive.



But, mos, being homeless is so much fun! :|
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Re: Anger at past generations

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 03 Apr 2010, 10:18:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', ' ') Trying to pretend a bad situation isn't really bad can be a form of repression or personal delusion.


We all probably share an utter contempt for the parasitic nature of the modern consumption culture. Right? Well, as consequences finally bring this to an end why not rejoice. For those that starve and perish each death is a move toward falling within carrying capacity. And for those whose resourcefulness and resiliency enable them to thrive they lay the cornerstones of the renaissance. When you view the correction through this lens then you can only feel joy at the process. For there is far more opportunity to live with dignity and self respect and rise or fall under natures limits than the parasitism that has existed in the hell we are about to leave behind. I don't focus on what is collapsing but rather on the process of transformation.

Take a real serious moment and look deeply at the usage of the word collapse. As long as we talk about collapse we actually are remaining fixed on the current paradigm that is collapsing. I don't deny that collapse will happen. I am not repressing the truth. Instead I already consider that which is collapsing as dead and move on toward nourishing the seedlings of the renaissance.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
Those of us who have spent years mulling over collapse will probably be better able to cope.



Those who spent years mulling before the collapse happened are going to the same ones mulling when collapse happens. I couldn't disagree with you more on this point. Those who will prove the most resilient are not despairing. They are in fact rejoicing for the hell is what we are leaving behind not what is coming in front of us. Or they are paradoxically not even aware of the big picture.

Despair only really means regret at that which is passing and fearing for that which is coming. Those are not very resilient attributes and actually reveal a deeper wish that things should stay the same.
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