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THE Middle Class Thread (merged)

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: How the Middle Class Slowly Evaporated in the Last 40 Years

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 25 Mar 2010, 20:11:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', 'I') didn't see any mention of the rise of IT workers. Back in the 70's there were practically no software developers, network and database administrators, etc.


A lot of those jobs have already gone to India. Over the years, especially in the last few, I notice that software has gotten consistently buggy. I suspect a lot of this is due to all the contracted-out Indian programming.

Whatever IT jobs we do still have will be gone at some point for the most part -- all these jobs are perfectly suited to telecommuting, so there's no reason to pay an American when an Indian can do it for half price or less.

Having said that, I do get your point and wonder how many IT jobs we actually have in this country. The point of the chart I posted was the contrast between the loss of manufacturing and the rise of finance and real estate. My suspicion is that real estate and construction alone dwarfs the IT field. So when you look at what is the foundation of our economy, I really don't think it's IT.
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Re: How the Middle Class Slowly Evaporated in the Last 40 Years

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 25 Mar 2010, 20:17:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', 'O')n the other side I just visited a local company here "vermont teddy bears". To my shocking most manufacturng building were stocked with boxes 'made in china'. Where are the machines I asked? Well, they are in china now.


Yikes that's terrible. I used to see those commercials and think "well at least we're making something in this country." That ought to be illegal, you shouldn't be able to call something a Vermont product if it's really a Shanghai product.

This reminds me of those "Amish hand-crafted" space heaters I posted about a while back. That's a whole big scam too, they have Amish assembling the cabinets but the actual heater comes from China. The heater costs like thirty bucks and then they sell this "handcrafted Amish" product for $300, lol. Another case of bait and switch, like your Vermont teddy bears, where people THINK they're paying more for high quality American when in fact its just Chinese junk.
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Re: How the Middle Class Slowly Evaporated in the Last 40 Years

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Fri 26 Mar 2010, 01:39:05

Recently bought
Image, exactly like one I bought early in the petroleum age.

Here's a nostalgic read:
St. Louis kitchen gadgets firm emphasizes quality, service
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Re: How the Middle Class Slowly Evaporated in the Last 40 Years

Unread postby Blacksmith » Fri 26 Mar 2010, 01:55:05

Has anyone looked into the migration of capital to offshore tax havens?
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Re: How the Middle Class Slowly Evaporated in the Last 40 Years

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Fri 26 Mar 2010, 02:15:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Blacksmith', 'H')as anyone looked into the migration of capital to offshore tax havens?

The taxman is starting to but that will be short-lived when the super-rich put a stop to it.
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Re: How the Middle Class Slowly Evaporated in the Last 40 Years

Unread postby MarkJ » Fri 26 Mar 2010, 05:50:14

Most local unskilled and low skilled manufacturing jobs pay poorly, many jobs are temporary, or have frequent layoffs.

Just a few examples.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')reedom Manufacturing has full time entry level positions available. The work involves preparing materials for production, folding finished products, and packaging products for shipment. The work is generally light duty. These positions require high observance skills and consistent attention to details. Employees must be able to read and write English legibly, follow verbal and written instructions correctly, and be able to count accurately. Starting wage is $7.75 an hour with a wage increase possible after a favorable 3 month training period.

If you are interested in employment with Freedom Manufacturing please respond to this advertisement to set up a time to complete the application and conduct a personal interview.


* Location: Saratoga Springs
* Compensation: $7.75/ hour starting wage

=================================

Integrated Staffing Corporation will be recruiting for manufacturing position in the Saratoga Springs area. Positions will be temporary with potential for permanency for the right candidate. Applicable candidates must have solid work experience with long term employment at prior jobs, experience in a warehouse environment and the ability to lift up to 50 lbs. for 12 hours per day.


* Location: Saratoga Springs, NY
* Compensation: $9.00 per hour

Manufacturing Workers

AccuStaff is a locally-owned staffing firm specializing in temporary, temp-to-hire, and direct hire opportunities in both clerical/administrative and light industrial fields. We’ve been successfully matching up great candidates with great employers for 30 years!

We are currently seeking Manufacturing workers for temp-to-hire positions in the Albany/Schenectady area. Candidates must have previous manufacturing experience and a good work history to be considered.

Responsibilities include:
• Standing for 8-10 hours per day
• Lifting/moving 30-50lbs of material with regularity
• Working in a team environment
• Make adjustments to equipment/machinery as needed
• Work on a production line where safety/quality/efficiency are stressed
• Using some power tools (drills, screwdrivers, mallets, etc.) to assemble products
• Ability to be flexible and learn various production lines (cross train) as needed by our client
• Ability to work overtime as requested by our client

To apply for these positions, please submit your work history/resume along with a cover letter detailing your experience and qualifications.

Pre-employment drug screen, and criminal background checks are conditions of employment for these temp to hire positions. Work schedules will vary based on client needs. These positions are NOT on bus line routes, thus you must have reliable transportation.



* Location: Schenectady, NY
* Compensation: $8.50 to $10/hour

=================================

Machine Operator

Immediate opening/full time position: Experienced machine operator for compression and injection plastic molding machines.

Qualifications - #1 Reliable, dependable and hard-working individual.

Must have experience: 2+ years. Mechanically inclined with the ability to set-up molds and operate compression and injection machines.
Ability to lift 50 lbs.

Salary: $8.75-$10.00 hour based on experience
Monday-Friday 7:30am-4:00pm
Paid holiday

Education: HS graduate or GED

Requirements: Experience, three professional references, drug test prior to commencing position.

# Location: Cohoes NY
# Compensation: $8.75+ hour based on experience


Many higher skilled manufacturing workers have left the manufacturing field due to frequent layoffs and poor working conditions. Many can make substantially more money working in warehousing and distribution. Many of these positions start inexperienced unskilled workers at a higher rate of pay than experienced machinists, welders and commercial/industrial maintenance workers, plus the jobs are full-time, year-round, long-term positions.
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Re: How the Middle Class Slowly Evaporated in the Last 40 Years

Unread postby Hoops_Mckann » Fri 26 Mar 2010, 07:02:16

Damn, $7.50 per hour, that is not much more than the federal minimum wage rate is it? They want a cover letter and resume for that? I remember in the 1990s getting a few part time and full $7-8 or higher paying jobs with just an application and semi informal interview. I remember how much easier it seemed for everyone get by and get ahead at that time.
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Re: How the Middle Class Slowly Evaporated in the Last 40 Years

Unread postby MarkJ » Fri 26 Mar 2010, 08:07:53

To get many of these low paying temporary or temp-to-hire jobs, job seekers often need multiple skills, manufacturing experience, reliable transportation, plus they have to pass a background check, drug screening, physical assessments, probationary periods and/or measure up to engineered labor standards.


Even if they're qualified, they're still often competing with a dozen or more better qualified, younger, healthier job seekers for every available position. Since the mid 90s, we've pretty much had an "employers market" since local regions are over-saturated with unskilled and low skilled laborers.

To add insult to injury, many of these low paying, temporary or part-time jobs are in areas with a high cost of living, so many workers live in areas with a cheaper cost of living, then commute 20/30/40 miles to work. Much of their paycheck is eaten up by the cost of gas, oil, vehicle maintenance, repairs, wear and tear, daycare, snacks and beverages for the ride etc.

Back in the late 80s/early 90s, many local employers hired people on-the-spot with an informal interview and no pre-employment conditions. Many local manufacturing jobs paid more in the 90s than they pay today, plus rents, housing, property taxes and utility bills were often half of what they are currently.
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Re: How the Middle Class Slowly Evaporated in the Last 40 Years

Unread postby turner » Fri 26 Mar 2010, 09:10:30

This talk by Elizabeth Warren (Uni prof and TARP oversight committee chair) about middle class America is very interesting. Fascinating breakdown of household costs over time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A
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Re: How the Middle Class Slowly Evaporated in the Last 40 Years

Unread postby heroineworshipper » Fri 26 Mar 2010, 17:05:48

Forget 1960. There were more jobs in native American times. That's failure.
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Re: How the Middle Class Slowly Evaporated in the Last 40 Years

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 26 Mar 2010, 21:07:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('heroineworshipper', 'F')orget 1960. There were more jobs in native American times. That's failure.


You know, I'm starting to think that the fundamental problem with the economy is really TOO MUCH productivity. There comes a point at which productivity kills jobs.. when one man can do the work of a hundred, then 99 men go without, you know?

The only way for humans to compete with machines and robotics is on price -- such as in China, where the labor of human hands is still cheaper than a machine. Which is saying a lot, since machinery and robots are incredibly cost effective over the long term (they don't strike, work 24/7, no breaks, no pay, they don't have kids that get sick).

Now I do of course realize that historically leaps in productivity have been a good thing -- the printing press comes to mind here. All I'm saying is that perhaps we're approaching the upper reaches of healthy productivity. Think about how many everyday jobs productivity kills.. grocery stores used to have baggers, then Walmart just had to design a register where the cashier has to be the bagger too. Boom, there goes all the bagger jobs.

Then, my local Walmart tried to get rid of the cashier jobs too with those self-checkouts (this didn't last long, but only because of customer theft). Think of video stores.. Blockbuster is on the verge of bankruptcy because of Netflix, and even drug stores have DVD rental vending machines now. You can say these jobs are crappy anyway, but then most jobs in America are crappy. It can't be better that people stay on the public dole rather than work (even a crappy bagger job or video store).

The list goes on and on.. ATMs reduced the need for tellers, the internet has rendered travel agents all but extinct, I know I've taken care of all my insurance needs over the internet for years now so surely some local agents must have lost jobs. Even the local tax collector employs less people than years ago, since so many do their local taxes on the internet.

I'm not a luddite, and I love these conveniences as much as anyone. But surely there must come a point where labor productivity is so incredibly high that we no longer have enough jobs to go around. We'll have a real crisis then, and we may have already reached that point now (people talk about 20% unemployment being the new normal). So in spite of all these fantastic consumer conveniences, we may end up with 1/3 or 1/2 the population barely getting by on a permanent unemployment dole.

I don't know what the answer will be, but it seems to me that some form of heavy socialism or even a new communism will need to be implemented. There's just no other option, when machines, robotics, and hyper-efficient technologies have eliminated the need for everyone to work. I would say all the newly redundant labor could be artists, but think how productive and efficient even art is -- one writer can entertain millions, one actor or musician or game developer can entertain millions, etc.

So that's my concern, when everything is mass produced and mass efficient, where are the jobs going to be? You can't have everyone working in finance and real estate, we saw where that got us.
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Re: How the Middle Class Slowly Evaporated in the Last 40 Years

Unread postby MarkJ » Sat 27 Mar 2010, 06:24:50

Many workers are highly productive due to incentives, bonuses and engineered labor standards. For example, many of the local unskilled/low skilled warehouse/distribution center workers make $20 plus per hour since they consistently perform 20/30/40 percent higher than engineered labor standards.

Many also receive bonuses for perfect safety records, perfect attendance or zero/limited mistakes, or they're re-trained, suspended or terminated for low productivity, safety violations or mistakes, which creates a much more productive workforce.

Many former manufacturing workers currently work in warehousing, distribution, trucking, maintenance, or other supporting industries.
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Re: How the Middle Class Slowly Evaporated in the Last 40 Years

Unread postby Loki » Sat 27 Mar 2010, 12:22:08

Here are a couple disturbing graphs recently published in the Washington Post---they encapsulate a lot of what is being said here:

Image

Image
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he past decade was the worst for the U.S. economy in modern times, a sharp reversal from a long period of prosperity that is leading economists and policymakers to fundamentally rethink the underpinnings of the nation's growth.

It was, according to a wide range of data, a lost decade for American workers. The decade began in a moment of triumphalism -- there was a current of thought among economists in 1999 that recessions were a thing of the past. By the end, there were two, bookends to a debt-driven expansion that was neither robust nor sustainable.

There has been zero net job creation since December 1999. No previous decade going back to the 1940s had job growth of less than 20 percent. Economic output rose at its slowest rate of any decade since the 1930s as well.

Middle-income households made less in 2008, when adjusted for inflation, than they did in 1999 -- and the number is sure to have declined further during a difficult 2009. The Aughts were the first decade of falling median incomes since figures were first compiled in the 1960s.

LINK
Last edited by Loki on Sat 27 Mar 2010, 12:45:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How the Middle Class Slowly Evaporated in the Last 40 Years

Unread postby Loki » Sat 27 Mar 2010, 12:44:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'Y')ou know, I'm starting to think that the fundamental problem with the economy is really TOO MUCH productivity. There comes a point at which productivity kills jobs.. when one man can do the work of a hundred, then 99 men go without, you know?

I think someone else already mentioned that although productivity is up, quality is down. Productivity for productivity's sake is a deadend, unless you're the factory owner reaping the profit on the gazillions of plastic widgets your Chinese slaves are churning out. I would suspect it is also correlated with a low level of job satisfaction---"high productivity" means that you get to stand in the same place all day putting the same part on the same widget.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') don't know what the answer will be, but it seems to me that some form of heavy socialism or even a new communism will need to be implemented. There's just no other option, when machines, robotics, and hyper-efficient technologies have eliminated the need for everyone to work.

I disagree strongly. We don't need communism, we just need politicians and industrialists who don't sell out their country for a quick buck. To begin with, we need to pull out of "free trade" agreements, institute strong tariffs, and slap big penalties on companies that send jobs overseas. Corporate globalism is responsible for gutting our industrial base---Ross Perot's great sucking sound has turned into a roar in the last 15 years.

We should also be much more aggressive about monopoly busting and encouraging small business. The latter can be done in a variety of ways, but preventing unfair competition from the Walmarts of the world is a good start. I've also been hearing talk of creating state-owned banks modeled on North Dakota's in order to provide funding for small businesses since the big banks can't be bothered. Granted, that's a socialist solution, but it's not the kind of centralized authoritarianism you're talking about. It's actually designed to help out small businesses compete in a market heavily skewed by megacorporations.

And last but certainly not least we need to end mass immigration. Anyone who suggests this is automatically labeled a racist xenophobe by liberal types, but it is absolute insanity to continue importing tens of millions of people while the number of jobs is stagnant or declining. I always find it ironic that ultraliberals support the same exact immigration policies as anti-union hyperconservatives. And let's not even talk about the environmental impact of increasing our population as rapidly as we are, due almost entirely to mass immigration.
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Re: How the Middle Class Slowly Evaporated in the Last 40 Years

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 27 Mar 2010, 14:09:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', ' ')we just need politicians and industrialists who don't sell out their country for a quick buck.


How do you get those?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', ' ')ultraliberals support the same exact immigration policies as anti-union hyperconservatives.



Not all of them do.
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Re: How the Middle Class Slowly Evaporated in the Last 40 Years

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 27 Mar 2010, 18:35:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')I disagree strongly. We don't need communism, we just need politicians and industrialists who don't sell out their country for a quick buck.


Well, I don't want communism either. Communism is a terrible system, with the opposite productivity problem -- communism is terribly anti-productive, and anti-efficient. The fact of human nature is that people will not do their best unless it's within a competitive framework, along with the fact that the market system is the most efficient natural system for managing goods and labor (top-down planning can never touch the free market).

Before you think I'm contradicting all my other opinions, bear in mind we don't have a true free market today -- we have too much socialism for the rich and corporations, and therefore our market system is broken. (along with the fact that we've been thrown into the same market as impoverished 3rd world nations)

So when I talk about a "new communism," I'm really thinking about what will be necessary in the future (though as I said, I think its already underway with the new 20% permanently unemployed living on the government dole). What I'm getting at here is that there will come a day when because of automation, computer tech, and robotics we LITERALLY will not have enough jobs for humans to do. This coming productivity-caused job crisis can only be solved by some kind of redistribution of wealth.

Actually there's another solution.. population decline. This is happening in Japan right now, but only because they really don't allow immigration. So there is no jobs crisis in Japan, and they're actually developing nursing robots to help care for the booming elderly population. So I guess the problem with the US is that we would have negative pop growth if we stopped immigration, but with immigration and because of it here we are with 20% unemployment.

We could do ourselves a big favor by stopping immigration. Some would say that as the labor market gets worse, then immigrants will stop coming. But I disagree, as immigrants are usually coming from someplace worse and they are well aware their labor is more attractive than domestic American labor (they'll work for less, and won't complain since they don't want deportation -- it's indentured servitude).

So that's the sum of it, we'll either have to redistribute wealth or say NO to Indian, Asian, Mexican, South American, and Haitian immigration.

(incidentally, I noticed my local grocery store the other day has three Hatian employees. I know they're Haitian from the creole accent. I'm not xenophobic or racist, but with so many locals out of work we really don't need this immigration right now)
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Re: How the Middle Class Slowly Evaporated in the Last 40 Years

Unread postby Loki » Sat 27 Mar 2010, 19:06:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', ' ')we just need politicians and industrialists who don't sell out their country for a quick buck.


How do you get those?


A worker's revolution? :lol:

Given that the US Supreme Court will now allow politicians to be openly bought and sold on the free market, I really don't know how we can elect an anti-globalist, pro-American majority of representatives. We somehow managed to avoid the worst of the traitorous sellouts for most of our history. Wasn't really until the 1990s that we headed full steam down the "free trade" road.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', ' ')ultraliberals support the same exact immigration policies as anti-union hyperconservatives.



Not all of them do.


True, but those that do vociferously shout down everyone else. Most other liberals are too afraid to speak up and suggest that mass immigration is a bad idea if you care at all about labor standards and environmental protection. They'll be shouted down as xenophobes and racists---I see/hear it all the time.

The complete absence of discussion of immigration/population control among both environmental groups and labor unions is rooted in this fear of being called a racist. Both enviros and unions used to talk about immigration, now mum's the word, even though the problem is worse than ever before.

Conservatives are just as divided, but the pro-overpopulation types aren't nearly as vocal. They don't have to be, they're perfectly content pulling the strings from behind the curtain. I'm sure it delights them to see so many delusional liberals offering such strong support for policies that are explicitly designed to destroy unions and lower living standards.
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Re: How the Middle Class Slowly Evaporated in the Last 40 Years

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 27 Mar 2010, 19:24:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
')A worker's revolution? :lol:



I'll strike if you do!

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Re: How the Middle Class Slowly Evaporated in the Last 40 Years

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 27 Mar 2010, 19:28:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
')A worker's revolution? :lol:



I'll strike if you do!

:)


Nah, wouldn't work -- they'd either replace us with a Mexican or Indian, or figure out we weren't necessary anyway. ;) Jobless recovery! Rally on!
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Re: How the Middle Class Slowly Evaporated in the Last 40 Years

Unread postby Loki » Sat 27 Mar 2010, 19:36:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')So when I talk about a "new communism," I'm really thinking about what will be necessary in the future (though as I said, I think its already underway with the new 20% permanently unemployed living on the government dole). What I'm getting at here is that there will come a day when because of automation, computer tech, and robotics we LITERALLY will not have enough jobs for humans to do. This coming productivity-caused job crisis can only be solved by some kind of redistribution of wealth.

Frankly, what you're arguing above is a bit cornucopian. What have you done with the real Sixstrings!?!? :lol:

I think it's optimistic to assume that we'll be on the same efficiency trajectory as we've been on for the last 50+ years. On the contrary, we may very well see MORE human labor required to do the same work (think field laborers vs. tractors). At least if peak oil and climate change turn out to be as nasty as I think they will.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ome would say that as the labor market gets worse, then immigrants will stop coming. But I disagree, as immigrants are usually coming from someplace worse and they are well aware their labor is more attractive than domestic American labor (they'll work for less, and won't complain since they don't want deportation -- it's indentured servitude).

Agreed, they are coming from places where 20% underemployment would be an improvement. I've visited many wholesale plant nurseries in my area as part of my work, and 90%+ of the workers are Mexican. And the vast majority of crew leader, foreman, etc., job adverts that I see require fluent Spanish, which pisses me off to no end.

I know many Americans in my horticulture program who would be happy to have those jobs (including myself). Many of the larger organic farms also use Mexican labor almost exclusively---the farm I'll be working on this season is a rare exception.

I hear people say that Mexicans are damn hard workers, that's why the nursery/farm owners hire them, but I haven't seen this myself. Last time I loaded a truck with a Mexican crew I was literally doing twice the work they were (took two of them to handle trees that I was loading by myself). Some are hard workers, some are slackers, just like with white folks. I have nothing against them, most seem like decent fellows, I just don't think allowing tens of millions of them into our country when employment is stagnate/declining is a rational policy.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o that's the sum of it, we'll either have to redistribute wealth or say NO to Indian, Asian, Mexican, South American, and Haitian immigration.

Hmmmm, so we've got a choice between (1) the iron fist of communism or (2) a change in our immigration policy that would be wildly popular with grassroots conservatives AND the silent majority of liberals. That's a tough one.... :)
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