Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

THE Petrobras Thread (merged)

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Petrobras CEO says 2010 Peak

Unread postby shortonsense » Mon 08 Feb 2010, 11:03:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JustaGirl', 'I')f you look at the wiki oil megaprojects, new production has averaged around 3 mbpd(give or take), since 2002. Since we have been on a plateau since '05 there has definitely been significant decline since then. So short is absolutely correct when he says we have managed to add a new Saudi every 3 years or so.

I understand what you're saying Short, I don't understand the argument going on. The problem is not necessarily the decline rate, the problem is when new production can no longer offset that decline.


My complaint and idea is that there is an either/or going on. Either 6-7% field decline is correct, as stated by either the IEA or Jimmy Carter 30+ years ago, in which case to maintain the plateau we have needed at least 2 new Saudi Arabia's ( 20+ million/day of production ) or that the 6-7% field decline is a ridiculous number swallowed hook, line and sinker by Peakers without a nano-second of thought or fact checking.

It certainly can't be both.
User avatar
shortonsense
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 3124
Joined: Sat 30 Aug 2008, 03:00:00

Re: Petrobras CEO says 2010 Peak

Unread postby davep » Mon 08 Feb 2010, 11:32:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonsense', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JustaGirl', 'I')f you look at the wiki oil megaprojects, new production has averaged around 3 mbpd(give or take), since 2002. Since we have been on a plateau since '05 there has definitely been significant decline since then. So short is absolutely correct when he says we have managed to add a new Saudi every 3 years or so.

I understand what you're saying Short, I don't understand the argument going on. The problem is not necessarily the decline rate, the problem is when new production can no longer offset that decline.


My complaint and idea is that there is an either/or going on. Either 6-7% field decline is correct, as stated by either the IEA or Jimmy Carter 30+ years ago, in which case to maintain the plateau we have needed at least 2 new Saudi Arabia's ( 20+ million/day of production ) or that the 6-7% field decline is a ridiculous number swallowed hook, line and sinker by Peakers without a nano-second of thought or fact checking.

It certainly can't be both.


6-7% may be the current rate of production decline globally at the moment. It doesn't follow that this was the case five or 30-odd years ago.

It's not a depletion rate figure, but a production rate figure.
What we think, we become.
User avatar
davep
Senior Moderator
Senior Moderator
 
Posts: 4579
Joined: Wed 21 Jun 2006, 03:00:00
Location: Europe

Re: Petrobras CEO says 2010 Peak

Unread postby shortonsense » Mon 08 Feb 2010, 13:13:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '6')-7% may be the current rate of production decline globally at the moment. It doesn't follow that this was the case five or 30-odd years ago.
I am not in a position to dispute the information available to the President of the United States. Are you?
User avatar
shortonsense
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 3124
Joined: Sat 30 Aug 2008, 03:00:00

Re: Petrobras CEO says 2010 Peak

Unread postby shortonsense » Mon 08 Feb 2010, 13:19:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'A')re you familiar with the Kübler-Ross model?
No. Does it have any relevance to discovery process modeling, modern drilling practices, the oil and gas business in general or peak oil in particular? If so, which part?
It is only reasonable of me to ask, considering your forays into alternate realities.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'A')ll we are hoping for is a smooth transition to stage two, that you don't go ballistic and hurt yourself. :cry:

Peak oil happened 5 years ago...the Prophets have spoken. I would say the transition has been quite peachy. If yours has not gone peachy, I have recommendations which can help.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'T')he transition is highly personal and must not be hastened on the basis of an imposed agenda or authority.

Okay. Would you like recommendations on how some of us have made this transition so easily?
User avatar
shortonsense
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 3124
Joined: Sat 30 Aug 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Petrobras CEO says 2010 Peak

Unread postby davep » Mon 08 Feb 2010, 13:38:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonsense', 'I') am not in a position to dispute the information available to the President of the United States. Are you?
Did he say that global fields were facing 7% production decreases, or just US ones?
What we think, we become.
User avatar
davep
Senior Moderator
Senior Moderator
 
Posts: 4579
Joined: Wed 21 Jun 2006, 03:00:00
Location: Europe
Top

Re: Petrobras CEO says 2010 Peak

Unread postby shortonsense » Mon 08 Feb 2010, 13:50:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', 'D')id he say that global fields were facing 7% production decreases, or just US ones?
It appears that his 6% decline is for domestic US fields, and his claims of needing a Saudi Arabia every 3 years is a global reference.

So it is not proper for me to assume that 6% was the information he had for global decline, but the need for a new Saudi Arabia is. I find it fascinating that the "need a new Saudi Arabia" analogy dates back that far...without any new Saudi Arabia's showing up.

I am now going to make sure I refound the same quote for the 6%, and that there isn't another speech where he combines the decline with the number of new Saudi Arabia's claim.
User avatar
shortonsense
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 3124
Joined: Sat 30 Aug 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Petrobras CEO says 2010 Peak

Unread postby davep » Mon 08 Feb 2010, 16:34:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonsense', 'I')t appears that his 6% decline is for domestic US fields, and his claims of needing a Saudi Arabia every 3 years is a global reference.
So it is not proper for me to assume that 6% was the information he had for global decline, but the need for a new Saudi Arabia is. I find it fascinating that the "need a new Saudi Arabia" analogy dates back that far...without any new Saudi Arabia's showing up.
I am now going to make sure I refound the same quote for the 6%, and that there isn't another speech where he combines the decline with the number of new Saudi Arabia's claim.
So will you stop banging on about 6-7% global declines in production from existing fields being anything other than a very recent thing? :roll: :mrgreen:
What we think, we become.
User avatar
davep
Senior Moderator
Senior Moderator
 
Posts: 4579
Joined: Wed 21 Jun 2006, 03:00:00
Location: Europe
Top

Re: Petrobras CEO says 2010 Peak

Unread postby shortonsense » Mon 08 Feb 2010, 19:37:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')So will you stop banging on about 6-7% global declines in production from existing fields being anything other than a very recent thing? :roll: :mrgreen:


Absolutely not. You see, just because the methods used by ASPO and even industry do not meet your requirements of proof, they certainly meet mine.

I would consider revising this opinion if you can demonstrate personal experience using decline curve analysis, at either the field level or well level, which would discount this position?

Until then, I certainly understand why ASPO uses them, and what they mean, until these ideas are disproven by someone with relevant experience. Perhaps RocDoc could comment on how often rates of change in exponential decline need to be changed, once assumed?

Certainly such methods are completely useless if these wells and fields didn't follow a predictable path, and this predictability makes it completely reasonable, with no proof to the contrary, to backcast those exponential declines for SOME period of time. I am only backcasting 5 years. ASPO decided they are valid for much longer periods of time than that.

Jimmys comments simply solidify the opinion that as an area ages, as the US, it hits this 6-7% decline spot. If, in fact peak was 2005 as has been claimed by the Prophets, then so much the more need for those 2.25 Saudi Arabia's to reveal themselves!
User avatar
shortonsense
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 3124
Joined: Sat 30 Aug 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Petrobras CEO says 2010 Peak

Unread postby shortonsense » Mon 08 Feb 2010, 19:38:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', ' ')Does he still twitter endlessly on about "multiple peaks?"


Why...are you worried about ANOTHER one? AGAIN?
User avatar
shortonsense
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 3124
Joined: Sat 30 Aug 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Petrobras CEO says 2010 Peak

Unread postby shortonsense » Mon 08 Feb 2010, 22:27:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')Shorty, no one read this stuff,


Then the PM's cheering me on from people who have read it are just a figment of my imagination? 8O
User avatar
shortonsense
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 3124
Joined: Sat 30 Aug 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Petrobras CEO says 2010 Peak

Unread postby shortonsense » Mon 08 Feb 2010, 23:54:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', ' ')Would you mind sharing your friends? I'd love to meet them.


Sorry, they are all hetero. :lol:
User avatar
shortonsense
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 3124
Joined: Sat 30 Aug 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Petrobras CEO says 2010 Peak

Unread postby VMarcHart » Tue 09 Feb 2010, 00:55:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'I')ts Monday, do we have a definitive agreement YET on what the Petrobras CEO actually said?
I can read Portuguese. I understood what he said.
On 9/29/08, cube wrote: "The Dow will drop to 4,000 within 2 years". The current tally is 239 bold predictions, 9 right, 96 wrong, 134 open. If you've heard here, it's probably wrong.
User avatar
VMarcHart
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1644
Joined: Mon 26 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Now overpopulating California
Top

Re: Petrobras CEO says 2010 Peak

Unread postby davep » Tue 09 Feb 2010, 04:18:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonsense', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')So will you stop banging on about 6-7% global declines in production from existing fields being anything other than a very recent thing? :roll: :mrgreen:


Absolutely not. You see, just because the methods used by ASPO and even industry do not meet your requirements of proof, they certainly meet mine.

I would consider revising this opinion if you can demonstrate personal experience using decline curve analysis, at either the field level or well level, which would discount this position?

Until then, I certainly understand why ASPO uses them, and what they mean, until these ideas are disproven by someone with relevant experience. Perhaps RocDoc could comment on how often rates of change in exponential decline need to be changed, once assumed?

Certainly such methods are completely useless if these wells and fields didn't follow a predictable path, and this predictability makes it completely reasonable, with no proof to the contrary, to backcast those exponential declines for SOME period of time. I am only backcasting 5 years. ASPO decided they are valid for much longer periods of time than that.

Jimmys comments simply solidify the opinion that as an area ages, as the US, it hits this 6-7% decline spot. If, in fact peak was 2005 as has been claimed by the Prophets, then so much the more need for those 2.25 Saudi Arabia's to reveal themselves!


What a strange post. It's not for me to show proof that there haven't been global declines in production from existing fields for a long time, but for you to prove that there have been. After all, you were the one making that assertion, and the related one of having found 2.25 Saudi Arabias extra capacity since 2005.

So, let's ignore the Carter thing (as that was merely the US, not global). Please back up your claim that we have been experiencing 7% production decline rates in production globally for existing fields since 2005.
What we think, we become.
User avatar
davep
Senior Moderator
Senior Moderator
 
Posts: 4579
Joined: Wed 21 Jun 2006, 03:00:00
Location: Europe
Top

Re: Petrobras CEO says 2010 Peak

Unread postby shortonsense » Tue 09 Feb 2010, 10:19:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', ' ')It's not for me to show proof that there haven't been global declines in production from existing fields for a long time, but for you to prove that there have been.


And I have done that to my satisfaction. To satisfy the question based on the questions you have asked would require someone of the stature of the IEA having made a study, and statement, about the exact size and shape of field declines in, say, 2005. I certainly can't find such a thing, and I certainly don't require someone else making that statement when the basics of its obviousness are contained within the information that IS available.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')
After all, you were the one making that assertion, and the related one of having found 2.25 Saudi Arabias extra capacity since 2005.


I am not the originator of such a claim. Jimmys claim was 1 Saudi per 3 years. My estimate is 1 per 2.2 years. My number is based on an amalgam of Jimmys number based on declines from long ago in the US, and the most recent claims of global decline by the IEA, which are 1% higher.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')So, let's ignore the Carter thing (as that was merely the US, not global). Please back up your claim that we have been experiencing 7% production decline rates in production globally for existing fields since 2005.


Only part of Jimmys claim was for the US, his Saudi Arabia count was not. And to answer your question, I need more information. Perhaps you are not comfortable with the use of non linear equations and their use by organizations such as those used by the Secretary of ASPO. What level of practical experience do you have with decline curve analysis as it pertains to the type of work done by ASPO?
User avatar
shortonsense
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 3124
Joined: Sat 30 Aug 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Petrobras CEO says 2010 Peak

Unread postby davep » Tue 09 Feb 2010, 10:22:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonsense', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', ' ')It's not for me to show proof that there haven't been global declines in production from existing fields for a long time, but for you to prove that there have been.


And I have done that to my satisfaction. To satisfy the question based on the questions you have asked would require someone of the stature of the IEA having made a study, and statement, about the exact size and shape of field declines in, say, 2005. I certainly can't find such a thing, and I certainly don't require someone else making that statement when the basics of its obviousness are contained within the information that IS available.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')
After all, you were the one making that assertion, and the related one of having found 2.25 Saudi Arabias extra capacity since 2005.


I am not the originator of such a claim. Jimmys claim was 1 Saudi per 3 years. My estimate is 1 per 2.2 years. My number is based on an amalgam of Jimmys number based on declines from long ago in the US, and the most recent claims of global decline by the IEA, which are 1% higher.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')So, let's ignore the Carter thing (as that was merely the US, not global). Please back up your claim that we have been experiencing 7% production decline rates in production globally for existing fields since 2005.


Only part of Jimmys claim was for the US, his Saudi Arabia count was not. And to answer your question, I need more information. Perhaps you are not comfortable with the use of non linear equations and their use by organizations such as those used by the Secretary of ASPO. What level of practical experience do you have with decline curve analysis as it pertains to the type of work done by ASPO?


I'm just not comfortable with supposition being touted as fact, as you did.
What we think, we become.
User avatar
davep
Senior Moderator
Senior Moderator
 
Posts: 4579
Joined: Wed 21 Jun 2006, 03:00:00
Location: Europe
Top

PreviousNext

Return to Peak Oil Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

cron