Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

"sustainability" is an oxymoron

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: "sustainability" is an oxymoron

Unread postby Narz » Fri 05 Feb 2010, 21:50:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lonewolf', '
')"The Myth of Self Reliance" http://www.energybulletin.net/node/51408


OMG. Toby Hemenway again. If he weren't a permaculture author he'd be writing for Peak Oil Debunked. The guy just loves to bite the hand that feeds him.

If you can't bite the hand that feeds you you're not a free man.

I like Toby.
“Seek simplicity but distrust it”
User avatar
Narz
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2360
Joined: Sat 25 Nov 2006, 04:00:00
Location: the belly of the beast (New Jersey)

Re: "sustainability" is an oxymoron

Unread postby culicomorpha » Sun 07 Feb 2010, 16:13:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('culicomorpha', '
')of all the animals on the planet, we are the only species that adapts the environment to fit our "needs" rather fitting our needs to the environment.


Image

The case isn't closed.


Hahaha... that's the best example you got, Mos?

Before I made this post, I did think of a few animals, mainly birds, that strictly speaking contradict what I claimed. The example I was thinking of is a bird (can't remember the species) that builds something resembling a straw thatched house. And there are many observed cases of monkeys using sticks to retrieve termites from mounds. No doubt there are others.

But I think the key distinction is that at some point, a quantitative difference eventually becomes a qualitative difference.

Those beaver are taking down the trees with their teeth, not driving their car to WalMart, buying a chainsaw, driving to the gas station to get fuel and then cutting down the tree.

Once these large technical systems that we utterly depend upon start failing - and they will - we will have to adapt or die. I don't really see any alternative.
User avatar
culicomorpha
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 249
Joined: Sat 03 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: cascadia

Re: "sustainability" is an oxymoron

Unread postby mike3 » Sun 07 Feb 2010, 16:29:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('culicomorpha', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('culicomorpha', '
')of all the animals on the planet, we are the only species that adapts the environment to fit our "needs" rather fitting our needs to the environment.


Image

The case isn't closed.


Hahaha... that's the best example you got, Mos?

Before I made this post, I did think of a few animals, mainly birds, that strictly speaking contradict what I claimed. The example I was thinking of is a bird (can't remember the species) that builds something resembling a straw thatched house. And there are many observed cases of monkeys using sticks to retrieve termites from mounds. No doubt there are others.

But I think the key distinction is that at some point, a quantitative difference eventually becomes a qualitative difference.

Those beaver are taking down the trees with their teeth, not driving their car to WalMart, buying a chainsaw, driving to the gas station to get fuel and then cutting down the tree.

Once these large technical systems that we utterly depend upon start failing - and they will - we will have to adapt or die. I don't really see any alternative.


But the end result is the same, that the tree is cut down -- so how does changing the means to the end cause it to go from "fitting needs to the environment" to "fitting environment to needs"?

(P.S. we can't get beaver teeth, so what do we do?)
User avatar
mike3
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed 28 Jun 2006, 03:00:00
Top

Re: "sustainability" is an oxymoron

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 07 Feb 2010, 17:14:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('culicomorpha', '
')Hahaha... that's the best example you got, Mos?

Before I made this post, I did think of a few animals, mainly birds, that strictly speaking contradict what I claimed. The example I was thinking of is a bird (can't remember the species) that builds something resembling a straw thatched house. And there are many observed cases of monkeys using sticks to retrieve termites from mounds. No doubt there are others.

But I think the key distinction is that at some point, a quantitative difference eventually becomes a qualitative difference.

Those beaver are taking down the trees with their teeth, not driving their car to WalMart, buying a chainsaw, driving to the gas station to get fuel and then cutting down the tree.

Once these large technical systems that we utterly depend upon start failing - and they will - we will have to adapt or die. I don't really see any alternative.


Before we had cars, and Wal-mart, and chainsaws we used to pick up rocks, bang them with other rocks to create a sharp edge. Then we would pick up that rock with a sharp edge and use it to chop things, even trees.

While technically that is using tool making technology it is about as simple as tools can get. The steps from using stone axes to using steel axes took a long time, but for the last 3000 years more or less we have used steel, or at least iron, axes. Chainsaws are just a late development, most of the forests in North America were felled with steel axes and steel ripsaws, not chainsaws. Once we learned to use stone axes however the path was set, because even then you could fit the axe to a shaft and use it to quite efficiently cut down trees.

On the other hand for centuries in Europe the population was quasi-stable and so were the forests and farmlands. The reason is TPTB during that period valued the Forests as their main source of fuel and therefore they made sure that harvesting was done in a sustainable way. Coal changed all of that in the early 1800's, but there is no reason we can not go back to using sustainable forestry/farming/urban lifestyles.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Alfred Tennyson', 'W')e are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 17094
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA
Top

Re: "sustainability" is an oxymoron

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 07 Feb 2010, 17:59:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'm')ost of the forests in North America were felled with steel axes and steel ripsaws,



Many of the trees were just burned also, by piling brush around the base and setting fire. Much deforestation worldwide has been done just by burning, to clear farmland. This was quite common in North America during the colonial period and expansion west. There were so many trees nobody could use that much wood in such a short period, and open land was needed for farming.

Old techniques such as coppicing could certainly be brought back. But burning is still common in many regions, including my own, where people burn huge piles of wood every time it rains, each pile enough for us to heat our house for the entire cold season. :-x

There's still a prevailing attitude in our culture that resources are inexhaustible. Until that attitude is changed, there's no incentive for people to learn more sustainable practices. :(
Ludi
 
Top

Re: "sustainability" is an oxymoron

Unread postby paimei01 » Mon 08 Feb 2010, 04:18:04

What do you need to end a tribe ? A tribe is the natural way people organize when free. Same as other animals - people live in groups. One may go sit on the mountaintop alone to meditate, but we are not solitary like the tiger for example.

You can find incipient tribes in all the gangs in the world, or just groups of friends. Living inside this artificial environment with no direct access to food - their culture is different from their ancestors. Even if they are "tribe".

What does it take to end this natural organization ? Kill them, take their land, make them dependent on the system. No more direct access to food - no more cooperation in everyday work. Slaves. Add a religion - that says God is above, separated from nature and people - no more "animism" and you can do anything - to people and to other life around. These Disneyland "religions" are really evil. Going very far into them - some say they find "God", the other sheep call them "saints", "enlightened ones" - but what they find is the same old concept "God is everything", "we are God".

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '&')quot;Shortly after crossing into the Congo we entered the forest, and for the first time I felt real fear... For the forest was evil. I felt it as soon as I saw it...
I made up my mind that I would make it my work to bring the heathen out of the forest, to give them sunlight, to show them how to live in God's open world..."


"It was wonderful to see the forest coming down on all sides. I could feel the power of Satan receding as every tree fell... He [Amboko] did not even like cutting down the forest, he said it will bring misfortune, unless we were going to use the ground for plantations... He said we should have at least some trees standing for shade, and for the protection of the soil...
We tried to make gardens and fill them with flowers, but they soon withered and died. The baked earth made admirable tennis courts, tough... And it was good to be able to relax and forget for a while that one was in Africa, surrounded by heathens. I had tried to make friends with them but it was impossible, and it always will be, at least for many years to come...
In the kitchens they used to give away food without my permission, to all their friends and relatives. When I chided them they asked me if I had not taught them to share whatever they had, that more will always be given to them by the Lord..."

Reverend Spence required that every employee on the mission be a Christian and he fined them if they failed to attend church services. He also tried to separate children from their parents, just as the Bureau of Indian Affairs often did in the United States. Finally he warned that if the natives chose to reject his message, "their blood is not on my hands but theirs, and on the hands of the Evil One who is in them all"


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '&')quot;The American Indian is of the soil, whether it be the region of the forests, plains, pueblos, or mesas. He fits into the landscape, for the hand that fashioned the continent also fashioned the man for his surroundings. He once grew as naturally as the wild sunflowers, he belongs just as the buffalo belonged..."

----------

"There is a road in the hearts of all of us, hidden and seldom traveled, which leads to an unkown, secret place. The old people came literally to love the soil, and they sat or reclined on the ground with a feeling of being close to a mothering power. Their teepees were built upon the earth and their alters were made of earth. The soul was soothing, strengthening, cleasnsing and healing. That is why the old Indian still sits upon the earth instead of propping himself up and away from its life giving forces. For him, to sit or lie upon the ground is to be able to think more deeply and to feel more keenly. He can see more clearly into the mysteries of life and come closer in kinship to other lives about him."

----------------

The old Lakota was wise. He knew that a man’s heart away from nature becomes hard.

-------------

"Knowledge was inherent in all things. The world was a library and its books were the stones, leaves, grass, brooks and the birds and animals that shared, alike with us, the storms and blessings of the earth. We learn to do what only the student of nature ever learns, and that is to feel beauty. We never rail at the storms, the furious winds, the biting frosts and snows. To do so intensifies human futility, so whatever comes we should adjust ourselves by more effort and energy if necessary, but without complaint. Bright days and dark days are both expressions of the Great Mystery, and the Indian reveled in being close the the Great Holiness."

- Luther Standing Bear, Oglala


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') have been to the end of the earth.
I have been to the end of the waters.
I have been to the end of the sky.
I have been to the end of the mountains.
I have found none that are not my friends.

-Navajo proverb


Benjamin Franklin about native Americans : http://www.poormojo.org/cgi-bin/gennie.pl?Rant+124+bi
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough homes ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game". Now it's "Crisis" time !Too many houses! Yes, we are insane!
paimei01
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 539
Joined: Tue 27 Feb 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Romania
Top

Re: "sustainability" is an oxymoron

Unread postby Quinny » Mon 08 Feb 2010, 05:12:01

Sustainability is not an oxymoron - Sustainable Development is IMHO.
Live, Love, Learn, Leave Legacy.....oh and have a Laugh while you're doing it!
User avatar
Quinny
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3337
Joined: Thu 03 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: "sustainability" is an oxymoron

Unread postby Last_Historian » Mon 08 Feb 2010, 08:03:18

Hunter-gatherers and animals might be considered to be living sustainably, but then along comes modern man to disturb their equilibrium forever. No matter how sustainable you think the biosphere is, some asteroid will eventually crash its party. Even life on Earth will eventually all go extinct due to the Sun's expansion. On unimaginable timescales, even the fundamental particles will decay. Complexity always falls apart, Second Law of Thermodynamics and all that. As such the only true sustainable existence is death, or non-existence. Nirvana.

Image
my Sublime Oblivion blog on Eurasia, geopolitics, and peak oil.
You can also follow me on Facebook and Twitter.
Forests precede civilizations and deserts follow them. - Chateaubriand.
User avatar
Last_Historian
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue 10 Feb 2009, 19:01:14

Re: "sustainability" is an oxymoron

Unread postby rangerone314 » Mon 08 Feb 2010, 09:19:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lonewolf', '
')"The Myth of Self Reliance" http://www.energybulletin.net/node/51408


OMG. Toby Hemenway again. If he weren't a permaculture author he'd be writing for Peak Oil Debunked. The guy just loves to bite the hand that feeds him.

In fairness, I didn't read a lot in that article that I disagreed with.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
User avatar
rangerone314
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4105
Joined: Wed 03 Dec 2008, 04:00:00
Location: Maryland
Top

Re: "sustainability" is an oxymoron

Unread postby rangerone314 » Mon 08 Feb 2010, 09:49:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('paimei01', 'W')hat do you need to end a tribe ? A tribe is the natural way people organize when free. Same as other animals - people live in groups. One may go sit on the mountaintop alone to meditate, but we are not solitary like the tiger for example.

You can find incipient tribes in all the gangs in the world, or just groups of friends. Living inside this artificial environment with no direct access to food - their culture is different from their ancestors. Even if they are "tribe".

What does it take to end this natural organization ? Kill them, take their land, make them dependent on the system. No more direct access to food - no more cooperation in everyday work. Slaves. Add a religion - that says God is above, separated from nature and people - no more "animism" and you can do anything - to people and to other life around. These Disneyland "religions" are really evil. Going very far into them - some say they find "God", the other sheep call them "saints", "enlightened ones" - but what they find is the same old concept "God is everything", "we are God".

You might like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P772Eb63qIY
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
User avatar
rangerone314
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4105
Joined: Wed 03 Dec 2008, 04:00:00
Location: Maryland
Top

Re: "sustainability" is an oxymoron

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Mon 08 Feb 2010, 10:12:50

Wow, Ranger; thanks for the link! I bookmarked it.
SeaGypsy
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 9285
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 04:00:00

Re: "sustainability" is an oxymoron

Unread postby rangerone314 » Mon 08 Feb 2010, 13:12:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'W')ow, Ranger; thanks for the link! I bookmarked it.

Sure, someone one here posted it not long ago, but I thought it applied to the post applied to Paimei01's post :)
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
User avatar
rangerone314
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4105
Joined: Wed 03 Dec 2008, 04:00:00
Location: Maryland
Top

Re: "sustainability" is an oxymoron

Unread postby Homesteader » Mon 08 Feb 2010, 23:20:55

[quote="paimei01" A tribe is the natural way people organize when free. [/quote]

Paimei01, that is beautifully and simply put.
"The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences…"
Sir Winston Churchill

Beliefs are what people fall back on when the facts make them uncomfortable.
User avatar
Homesteader
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1856
Joined: Thu 12 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Economic Nomad

Re: "sustainability" is an oxymoron

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 09 Feb 2010, 00:17:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lonewolf', 'W')hat known (alleged) culture/paradigm in 'all of HIStory' was the most "sustainable"?$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')hina


Why/how were they (was this) "sustainable"?$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hey absorbed ,defeated, adapted to,or indured every invader from Gangas Kahn to the Japanese at Nanking


If they were "sustainable", then where are they now?$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')here they always were all 1.3 billion of them.

Why did they fail to "sustain" themselves ?$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hey did not fail

How is this "sustainable"?

Failure to sustain one's 'way of life' is not sustainability.$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')eproducing your DNA in competative offspring is
Historical humans (misery monkeys) have never attempted, much less achieved, sustainability.
Never have. Never will.$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '6').5 Billion people disagree

Humans have always been the penultimate planetary predator - obsessive/obligate/onerous omnipotent omnivores, calloused craven consumers, deliberately delusional destroyers of worlds. Always.$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ot deliberate and not always

Bye-bye Bipeds.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ye bye nerds is more likely
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 14897
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: "sustainability" is an oxymoron

Unread postby Stonemason » Tue 09 Feb 2010, 02:20:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mike3', '
')But the reason we "will not" is our genes, so it cannot be changed, right?



There must be some genes associated with not having children, though, because some people choose not to have them, and some people attempt to live "sustainably" to some extent. If it were genetic that we can't do these things (or won't do them) then nobody would ever do them. These people might be mutants, but of course mutation is an important aspect of genetics. Sadly, the non-reproducing mutants don't pass on their non-reproducing and frugal genes. :(

Personally, I think it's cultural, not genetic. But that's just me. :)


Logically, you've settled the case, but hardly anyone uses pure logic in their calculations.
User avatar
Stonemason
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri 02 Feb 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Canada
Top

Re: "sustainability" is an oxymoron

Unread postby paimei01 » Tue 09 Feb 2010, 05:47:53

Rangerone314, thanks for the video, posted it on my blog :) I don't agree with all he says. Civilization is trying very hard to produce more "greed" and more disconnected people - and rewards the best of them with top positions. He talks about wars. In 1914 there was a "Christmas truce". People stopped shooting, some exchanged gifts, some got drunk, some even played football. If the MACHINE (officers) hadn't shown up - perhaps those "bloodthirsty warriors" would have become friends, no more "GREAT WAR".

Mark Twain :
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')h, it's true. I know your race. It is made up of sheep. It is governed by minorities, seldom or never by majorities. It suppresses its feelings and its beliefs and follows the handful that makes the most noise. Sometimes the noisy handful is right, sometimes wrong; but no matter, the crowd follows it. The vast majority of the race, whether savage or civilized, are secretly kind-hearted and shrink from inflicting pain, but in the presence of the aggressive and pitiless minority they don't dare to assert themselves. Think of it! One kind-hearted creature spies upon another, and sees to it that he loyally helps in iniquities which revolt both of them. Speaking as an expert, I know that ninety-nine out of a hundred of your race were strongly against the killing of witches when that foolishness was first agitated by a handful of pious lunatics in the long ago. And I know that even to-day, after ages of transmitted prejudice and silly teaching, only one person in twenty puts any real heart into the harrying of a witch. And yet apparently everybody hates witches and wants them killed. Some day a handful will rise up on the other side and make the most noise—perhaps even a single daring man with a big voice and a determined front will do it—and in a week all the sheep will wheel and follow him, and witch-hunting will come to a sudden end.



Homesteader - I am sure a tribe the size of a country can exist. If united by a culture of freedom and not telling someone else what to do. That does not mean "separation", that is the base for any community, any group of friends. If people have free access to the work for the basics they need - then free access to the results for their work. Then - they will cooperate, to obtain those basics easier. The rest of the time freedom. Who wants more works, associates with others, but he can't be used, he does not depend on anyone, nobody can condition his survival - or his life (free time) on working for him. Free people have free access to the basic necessities of life. In the past it was simple, now - we destroyed everything and we are too many. To achieve that natural organization and to develop a culture of freedom - we need the "State". The minimal state - that makes sure of what I said above. Free access to the basics and to the work that produces them. With current technology that is 1 month work a year. And you have food, clothes, some items and some shelter. Want more - free to build yourself the Buckingham palace, I don't care. If people don't have access to the basics, and depend on others - all this "civilization" madness develops.
I am not sure it was inevitable. I link it to these new religions, seeing God as some person, handing punishments, and so on. Everywhere "civilization" appeared - there are stories of "godly teachers" teaching people how to cultivate the land, stories of gods in their "vimanas" also there are buildings and stuff, not easily explained. But that's something else.

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2004/02/0079915
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')griculture is a recent human experiment. For most of human history, we lived by gathering or killing a broad variety of nature's offerings. Why humans might have traded this approach for the complexities of agriculture is an interesting and long-debated question, especially because the skeletal evidence clearly indicates that early farmers were more poorly nourished, more disease-ridden and deformed, than their hunter-gatherer contemporaries. Farming did not improve most lives. The evidence that best points to the answer, I think, lies in the difference between early agricultural villages and their pre-agricultural counterparts—the presence not just of grain but of granaries and, more tellingly, of just a few houses significantly larger and more ornate than all the others attached to those granaries. Agriculture was not so much about food as it was about the accumulation of wealth. It benefited some humans, and those people have been in charge ever since.


Pirates:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy#Pirate_Democracy
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')oth the captain and the quartermaster were elected by the crew; they, in turn, appointed the other ship's officers. The captain of a pirate ship was often a fierce fighter in whom the men could place their trust, rather than a more traditional authority figure sanctioned by an elite. However, when not in battle, the quartermaster usually had the real authority. Many groups of pirates shared in whatever they seized; pirates injured in battle might be afforded special compensation similar to medical or disability insurance.

There are contemporary records that many pirates placed a portion of any captured money into a central fund that was used to compensate the injuries sustained by the crew. Lists show standardised payments of 600 pieces of eight ($156,000 in modern currency) for the loss of a leg down to 100 pieces ($26,800) for loss of an eye. Often all of these terms were agreed upon and written down by the pirates, but these articles could also be used as incriminating proof that they were outlaws.

Pirates readily accepted outcasts from traditional societies, perhaps easily recognizing kindred spirits, and they were known to welcome them into the pirate fold. For example as many as 40% of the pirate vessels' crews were slaves liberated from captured slavers. Such practices within a pirate crew were tenuous, however, and did little to mitigate the brutality of the pirate's way of life.


From "Columbus and other cannibals" :
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]What Forbes tells us is that there is this negative consciousness, this spiritual sickness called "The Wetiko Psychosis" that gets passed on from being to being. It's an inherited twisted perspective on life, and feeling about life.. The bestowers for the last 500 years of the Wetiko disease have come from the European culture, although he mentions that many cultures through out history have endulged in Wetiko behavior, from Egypt, to Rome, to Russia, China. He's also mentioned that the once oppressed may carry on this mentality, this lunacy to a higher degree sometimes then the original oppressors/ colonizers.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '&')quot;The Pawnee : They were a well-disciplined people, maintaining public order under many trying circumstances. And yet they had none of the power mechanisms that we consider essential to a well-ordered life. No orders were ever issued...Time after time I tried to find a case of orders given and there were none. Gradually I began to realize that democracy is a very personal thing which like charity, begins at home. Basically it means not being coerced and having no need to coerce anyone else. The Pawnee learned this way of living in the earliest beginning of his life. In the detailed events of every day as a child, he began his development as a disciplined and free man or as a women who felt her dignity and her independence to be inviolate"

---

"The Creeks are just honest, liberal and hospitable to strangers; considerate, loving and affectionate to their wives and relations; fond of their children; industrious, frugal, temperate and persevering; charitable and forbearing. I have been weeks and months among them and in their towns, and never observed the least sign of contention or wrangling: never saw an instance of and Indian beating his wife, or even reproving her in anger. In this case they stand as examples of reproof to the most civilized nations . . . for indeed their wives merit their esteem and the most gentle treatment, they being industrious, frugal, loving and affectionate . . .Their internal police and family economy. . .incontrovertibly place those people in an illustrious point of view: their liberality, intimacy and friendly intercourse with one another, without any restraint of ceremonious formality; as if they were even insensible of the use of necessity of associating the passions of affections of avarice, ambition or covetousness. . . How are we to account for their excellent policy in civil government; it cannot derive its influence from coercive laws, for they have no such artificial system."
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough homes ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game". Now it's "Crisis" time !Too many houses! Yes, we are insane!
paimei01
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 539
Joined: Tue 27 Feb 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Romania
Top

Re: "sustainability" is an oxymoron

Unread postby rangerone314 » Tue 09 Feb 2010, 09:18:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('paimei01', 'M')ark Twain :
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')h, it's true. I know your race. It is made up of sheep. It is governed by minorities, seldom or never by majorities. It suppresses its feelings and its beliefs and follows the handful that makes the most noise. Sometimes the noisy handful is right, sometimes wrong; but no matter, the crowd follows it. The vast majority of the race, whether savage or civilized, are secretly kind-hearted and shrink from inflicting pain, but in the presence of the aggressive and pitiless minority they don't dare to assert themselves. Think of it! One kind-hearted creature spies upon another, and sees to it that he loyally helps in iniquities which revolt both of them. Speaking as an expert, I know that ninety-nine out of a hundred of your race were strongly against the killing of witches when that foolishness was first agitated by a handful of pious lunatics in the long ago. And I know that even to-day, after ages of transmitted prejudice and silly teaching, only one person in twenty puts any real heart into the harrying of a witch. And yet apparently everybody hates witches and wants them killed. Some day a handful will rise up on the other side and make the most noise—perhaps even a single daring man with a big voice and a determined front will do it—and in a week all the sheep will wheel and follow him, and witch-hunting will come to a sudden end.

Good quote from Twain although this book http://www.amazon.com/Sociopath-Next-Door-Martha-Stout/dp/0767915828/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265721350&sr=1-2 says that sociopaths (at least in US) are more like 4% (1/25) of the population than 1/20.

That book also says that sociopaths tend to work their way up to positions of power in both politics and business. (a statement on both the nature of sociopaths in seeking such, and on our systems for enabling such)
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
User avatar
rangerone314
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4105
Joined: Wed 03 Dec 2008, 04:00:00
Location: Maryland
Top

Re: "sustainability" is an oxymoron

Unread postby lonewolf » Tue 09 Feb 2010, 11:06:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lonewolf', 'W')hat known (alleged) culture/paradigm in 'all of HIStory' was the most "sustainable"?$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')hina


"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." Confucius

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." Martin Luther King, Jr.

The degree/extent of air, soil, and water pollution in China makes the former Soviet Union look like the Navaho Nation by comparison. All the fiat currency on the planet won't sustain a single one of them when the chickens come home to crap. Further China today (and much of HIStory) is a conglomeration of many 'ethnic' groups ( and gangs) - not of a common ancestry, heritage, community or 'civilization'.

With 1.3 billion, China as about as "sustainable" as toilet paper stowed in a dinghy during a typhoon.

"... how's that hopey-changey thingy working out for you?"- Moosiah
User avatar
lonewolf
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun 06 Nov 2005, 04:00:00
Location: past tense
Top

Previous

Return to Open Topic Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest