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America: The Disposable Society

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: The Disposable American Worker, Era of the Perma-Temp

Unread postby Cloud9 » Sat 09 Jan 2010, 16:08:37

Mos, I don’t think the end is neigh. I think the zeitgeist of the country is about where it was in the early 1930’s. A great many people believe the system has failed and it is time for a radical change. You might remember a number of American workers gave up on capitalism altogether in the 1930’s and, moved to the Soviet Union to find jobs. Individuals like Huey Long and Father Coughlin came out of the woodwork. F.D.R. steered us a course between the brown shirts and the red brigades.


The country at the moment is frozen. The mood of the moment is uncertainty. The economic pundits are warning of hyper inflation and hyper deflation. Environmentalists are telling us that we are all going to burn up in global warming and here we are freezing our butts off. The body politic is confused and in disarray. We have no direction.

Coming events whether it be riots in the streets or catastrophic acts of terrorism will define the new enemies of the state. The risk lies with the political party that rides this fear into positions of power. It was riots in the streets that catapulted Hitler to the pinnacle of power in Nazi Germany.

Obama is a failed promise. The Republicans don’t offer us anything different.

We need a political plan. Two trillion dollars to the world banks is not a plan. Putting everyone on the dole is not a plan either. The people need a dream. We need a clear image of the future and a plan on how we are going to get there.

Until we get that dream, we are doomed to the slow rot of a failed empire.
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Re: The Disposable American Worker, Era of the Perma-Temp

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 09 Jan 2010, 17:19:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', ' ') The people need a dream. We need a clear image of the future and a plan on how we are going to get there.

Until we get that dream, we are doomed to the slow rot of a failed empire.



Are you a person? What's your dream, your plan? Or do you expect someone else to come up with one for you? 8O
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Re: The Disposable American Worker, Era of the Perma-Temp

Unread postby frankthetank » Sat 09 Jan 2010, 18:23:28

A friend of mine was sitting around watching CSPAN because they were debating a defense bill that included extension of his unemployment benefits. He was all excited when it passed....
lawns should be outlawed.
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Re: The Disposable American Worker, Era of the Perma-Temp

Unread postby MarkJ » Sun 10 Jan 2010, 08:16:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MarkJ', '
')
For example, we recently had an installer that wanted $25 per hour. When he worked for a friend, he took three12 hour days to install a boiler that myself, brothers and many of out top performing employees could have done in a single day.

I checked out several of his jobs, but all had code violations and poor workmanship.



By "had" you mean you actually hired this bum? 8O Or you mean he was looking to work for you?



No, we didn't hire him. At his skill and performance level, he'd be overpaid at $10 per hour.

Besides being too slow, he wasn't well rounded since he primarily worked as an installation helper/installer. He was more of a parts assembler since he didn't estimate, design, tune, service, troubleshoot or repair the systems he was installing.

Our guys making $25 Plus per hour generally have multiple service/installation/design skills in residential/commercial plumbing, heating, cooling, refrigeration, metalwork, electrical, forced-air, hydro-air, hydronics, steam, radiant, gas/oil/propane, solar hot water, alt-energy and control systems, plus their own tools, equipment and CDL with Hazmat endorsement.
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Re: The Disposable American Worker, Era of the Perma-Temp

Unread postby Cloud9 » Sun 10 Jan 2010, 09:50:54

Ludi, I do not have an ego large enough to let me run this country. There are at least 100,000 younger, smarter Americans out there who are better suited for the job than I am. I do not see the solution to our problems as being catastrophic collapse and anarchy.

We need a new political party that is not beholden to the banksters and Wall Street and believes in a literal interpretation of the Constitution. To get that party we the people will have to quiet our differences and unite behind a single party with a series of political agendas that will heal this nation.

First off, we have to get rid of the idea that one size fits all. If two guys with spikes screwed into their skull want to get married, there aught to be one state in the union that allows that. If six women want to marry one guy, there aught to be a state that allows that. If one state wants to allow prayer in schools whether it be a Baptist, Buddhist, or Muslim prayer, there ought to be a state that allows that. Whether a little girl can get an abortion or not is not a national issue. It is a local issue. It is much easier to change the politics on a local level than it is on the national level. We need a reemergence of state’s rights.

We need to cut off federal funding to states unless the program benefits the nation as a whole. If the states cannot afford the program whatever it be then it needs to be cut back or abandoned. Once that comes into play, common sense will govern sentencing guidelines for judges. Legislatures will start to look more realistically at the things they choose to criminalize. Municipalities will look more realistically at the kinds of police, fire and education they can afford. Federal grants and unfunded mandates have skewed the landscape. All of the money received by the states from the federal government is seen by the states as free money and much of it is wasted.

Apparently California is serving as a model for the rest of us. It is an example of feel good politics run amuck. The common myth that government is a sugar daddy with infinite resources is about to be exposed. It is unconscionable to demand that the rest of the country be taxed to pay for the foolishness of Californians. California needs to collapse. Only after services have shut down will the people pull them selves up from the chaos and vote in the government they can afford.

Florida is right behind California. As a school teacher, I am arguing against my own self interest.

The body politic has for eighty years acted like a teenager with daddy’s car keys and credit card. Well, daddy has squandered the family fortune and he can no longer pay the bills.

We need a national energy plan. Once again, one size does not fit all. Wind farms make sense in some areas. Solar makes sense in other areas. For some, the best option is nuclear. While we are waiting for new technologies to emerge, it is unrealistic to expect the country to sit in the cold and dark. Fossil fuels will have to be used in the interim. It may very well be that the age of the five car family is over.

The fact that Wall Street has been able affect a silent coup by buying congress has left the rest of us without a government. I understand the notion that campaign contributions are a form of speech. To reign in the monster that this has created, corporations should be allowed to only contribute to those politicians who reside within their own districts. That would probably make the representatives of Delaware the richest members of congress.

Congressmen should be under the same retirement plans the rest of us are under. They should be under the same health care. They should be personally liable for the bills they support. The way I see it, the current body owes the country about two trillion dollars. They should be publicly humiliated for signing bills they don’t read and don’t understand.

Every federal agency needs to be reviewed and its reason for existence justified to the public. If there is no justification, then it needs to be eliminated. An austerity program needs to be emplaced. Every agency needs to take a 5% cut in its budget. That program should continue for five years until the entire system has been shrunk by 25%.

Unemployment compensation needs to be replaced by the CCC and WPA. The banks and their bank officers need to be prosecuted under RICO for violating Title 18 USC 1014. The free lunch needs to end.
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Re: The Disposable American Worker, Era of the Perma-Temp

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 10 Jan 2010, 15:33:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'L')udi, I do not have an ego large enough to let me run this country. There are at least 100,000 younger, smarter Americans out there who are better suited for the job than I am. I do not see the solution to our problems as being catastrophic collapse and anarchy. .



Good to know. :)
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Re: The Disposable American Worker, Era of the Perma-Temp

Unread postby the48thronin » Sun 10 Jan 2010, 21:57:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'L')udi, I do not have an ego large enough to let me run this country. There are at least 100,000 younger, smarter Americans out there who are better suited for the job than I am. I do not see the solution to our problems as being catastrophic collapse and anarchy. .



Good to know. :)


He does make good points tho Don't you think? As a beginning it would certainly point the country back in the direction of sanity and continuance!
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Re: The Disposable American Worker, Era of the Perma-Temp

Unread postby Jotapay » Sun 10 Jan 2010, 22:20:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')And when I say unions, I mean we need the French variety -- workers marching in the streets, nationwide solidarity strikes, shutting down interstates, the whole nine yards. That will never happen, of course.. unions are dead, and so is the American worker.


You can't bleed water from a stone. Look at what unions have helped do to the auto industry, for instance. As long as you hold onto globalization, it's a race to the bottom, period.


I thought you would be pro-globalisation.
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Re: The Disposable American Worker, Era of the Perma-Temp

Unread postby Jotapay » Sun 10 Jan 2010, 22:29:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('the48thronin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'L')udi, I do not have an ego large enough to let me run this country. There are at least 100,000 younger, smarter Americans out there who are better suited for the job than I am. I do not see the solution to our problems as being catastrophic collapse and anarchy. .



Good to know. :)


He does make good points tho Don't you think?


Yes.
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Re: The Disposable American Worker, Era of the Perma-Temp

Unread postby americandream » Mon 11 Jan 2010, 01:40:25

We need, we need, we need, but you ain't gonna get 'cos you ain't wealthy enough and powerful enough to matter. And if you were, you would have been moving your investments to low cost, high return sweatshops, India and China. All the hand wringin isn't going to alter that fact. Power is what you lack, the power to take precedence in how your environment is organised. And for that you have to organise and sacrifice.$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'L')udi, I do not have an ego large enough to let me run this country. There are at least 100,000 younger, smarter Americans out there who are better suited for the job than I am. --snip--
Unemployment compensation needs to be replaced by the CCC and WPA. The banks and their bank officers need to be prosecuted under RICO for violating Title 18 USC 1014. The free lunch needs to end.
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Re: The Disposable American Worker, Era of the Perma-Temp

Unread postby Novus » Mon 11 Jan 2010, 02:45:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'W')e need, we need, we need, but you ain't gonna get 'cos you ain't wealthy enough and powerful enough to matter. And if you were, you would have been moving your investments to low cost, high return sweatshops, India and China. All the hand wringin isn't going to alter that fact. Power is what you lack, the power to take precedence in how your environment is organised. And for that you have to organise and sacrifice.


The poor would be better off if they just revolted and cut the heads off the wealthy but they won't because they are sheep and zombies more likely to turn on each other than identify who their real enemies are. If the system doesn't work for the majority of the people than it is time to change illegitimate said system. Marx argued this very same point 130 years ago but very little has changed since the dirty 1880s. What Marx didn't realize was how willing the sheeple were to just be content slaves. For those who can see above this it is best to just drop out and go off grid to self sufficiency for the few cannot change human nature. To the rest of the unwashed masses may they enjoy the shackles of slavery.
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Re: The Disposable American Worker, Era of the Perma-Temp

Unread postby americandream » Mon 11 Jan 2010, 06:59:53

Marx foresaw the power of suggestion in his caution about opiates such as religion. A fundamental function of capitalism and its development is the creation of a deep consumer culture, complete with the fictions of freedom and constitutionalism. Where its ultimate failure lies is in its tendency to consume itself from within as its voracious capacity for profit is overwhelmed by natural limits. Its here that its achilles heel lies.$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'T')he poor would be better off if they just revolted and cut the heads off the wealthy but they won't because they are sheep and zombies more likely to turn on each other than identify who their real enemies are. If the system doesn't work for the majority of the people than it is time to change illegitimate said system. Marx argued this very same point 130 years ago but very little has changed since the dirty 1880s. What Marx didn't realize was how willing the sheeple were to just be content slaves. For those who can see above this it is best to just drop out and go off grid to self sufficiency for the few cannot change human nature. To the rest of the unwashed masses may they enjoy the shackles of slavery.
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Re: The Disposable American Worker, Era of the Perma-Temp

Unread postby Cloud9 » Mon 11 Jan 2010, 07:56:38

The poor won't revolt as long as the hand outs continue. The revolt won't happen until the bread and circuses end.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/181869- ... n-strategy
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Re: The Disposable American Worker, Era of the Perma-Temp

Unread postby Cloud9 » Mon 11 Jan 2010, 08:13:10

This is a pretty good read. For the past 35 years I have worked for government and have done well. The problem is that my experience has been repeated by too many others.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/181858- ... yment-woes
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Re: The Disposable American Worker, Era of the Perma-Temp

Unread postby MarkJ » Mon 11 Jan 2010, 08:19:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he poor would be better off if they just revolted and cut the heads off the wealthy but they won't because they are sheep and zombies more likely to turn on each other than identify who their real enemies are.


The following keeps employment/income/savings challenged people from revolting.


Low income, taxation, zero income taxation, $X,000.000 tax refunds (credits), low property taxation, zero property taxation, unemployment, multiple unemployment extensions, bankruptcy, disability, subsidized public/private housing, emergency shelters, HEAP, Emergency HEAP, food stamps, WIC, food bank supplements, free school lunches, Medicaid, daycare assistance, lifeline phone, free cellular phones/minutes, transportation assistance, transit lines, free furnace/boiler maintenance/repairs/replacement, winterization/weatherization assistance, home improvement assistance, growing service industry jobs, growing part-time jobs, under-the-table jobs and services, sharing expenses with room-mates, moving in with family and friends, financial support from family and friends.

Many people won't revolt since they're fat and happy so to speak. They're too lazy, obese and out-of-shape to revolt or they don't like freezing outdoor temperatures and walking great distances to revolt. They'd rather sit home watching cable, movies, downloading music, movies, porn, playing video games, surfing the net, talking, texting, laying on the couch, eating, snacking, drinking, smoking, sleeping etc.

If they had the energy to revolt, they'd have no problem finding 1/2/3 jobs like many other low income residents.

The low income people often turn on themselves. Besides poor vs poor related crimes, many are jealous or upset that others have nicer, larger or more modern subsidized public/private housing units, that they have vehicles, that they have nice vehicles, that they've been bumped from waiting lists and/or that others are receiving more or larger amounts of public assistance benefits.

They'll report friends, family and neighbors for failure to report income, savings assets, household members or turn them in for unemployment fraud, food-stamp fraud, daycare fraud, Medicaid fraud, transportation fraud or report them for child neglect/abuse.
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Re: The Disposable American Worker, Era of the Perma-Temp

Unread postby mcgowanjm » Mon 11 Jan 2010, 09:02:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')ow income, taxation, zero income taxation, $X,000.000 tax refunds (credits), low property taxation, zero property taxation, unemployment, multiple unemployment extensions, bankruptcy, disability, subsidized public/private housing, emergency shelters, HEAP, Emergency HEAP, food stamps, WIC, food bank supplements, free school lunches, Medicaid, daycare assistance, lifeline phone, free cellular phones/minutes, transportation assistance, transit lines, free furnace/boiler maintenance/repairs/replacement, winterization/weatherization assistance, home improvement assistance, growing service industry jobs, growing part-time jobs, under-the-table jobs and services, sharing expenses with room-mates, moving in with family and friends, financial support from family and friends.
Only the Top Quintile Poor know about the above, which means they're educated poor. And still 54 million Americans are starving. And the Top Quintile Poor also have $100,000 college debt to pay off:

Unless they have come through the military, many pilots also start their first jobs deeply in debt. “Many of them come to these jobs with $150,000 of debt for a $15,000-$20,000 starting job,” said Ryter. “It’s hard to make the economics of that work out. But there’s a theory that one day they’ll make a lot more money than that. Maybe they will, maybe they won’t. But the problem is they are in, for a number of years, quite a hard haul and there’s certainly no glamour. That’s long since gone.” The result is not only the diminishing of a once coveted profession but increasing concerns about safety as many pilots are worked to the very limits of regulations, leaving them exhausted as well as relatively poor.

See the Poor are just like a dying forest. All it takes is a spark.
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Re: The Disposable American Worker, Era of the Perma-Temp

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 11 Jan 2010, 14:20:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mcgowanjm', '
')Only the Top Quintile Poor



What do you mean by "top quintile poor"?
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Re: The Disposable American Worker, Era of the Perma-Temp

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 11 Jan 2010, 14:22:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mcgowanjm', 'A')nd still 54 million Americans are starving.
Why can't they get all that great free stuff MarkJ is always posting about? Apparently you can just sit on your ass and the free stuff just comes rolling in. Free snacks.$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MarkJ', 'M')any people won't revolt since they're fat and happy so to speak. They're too lazy, obese and out-of-shape to revolt or they don't like freezing outdoor temperatures and walking great distances to revolt. They'd rather sit home watching cable, movies, downloading music, movies, porn, playing video games, surfing the net, talking, texting, laying on the couch, eating, snacking, drinking, smoking, sleeping etc.
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Re: The Disposable American Worker, Era of the Perma-Temp

Unread postby Pretorian » Mon 11 Jan 2010, 14:59:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mcgowanjm', 'A')nd still 54 million Americans are starving.
54 million Americcans are starving? I wonder how long till we'll see picttures like this

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Instead of these:
Image

Image


Image
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Re: The Disposable American Worker, Era of the Perma-Temp

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 11 Jan 2010, 15:29:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crude_intentions', 'F')rom the Article$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')osses are no longer rewarded based on how many people they supervise, so they have less incentive to hang on to staff. Instead, the increasing use of bonuses tied to short-term profit performance gives managers an incentive to slash labor costs.
And here we have a large part of the problem short-term thinking to gain the most of amount of money in the shortest amount of time.
Exactly. And it's, IMO, both frightening and amazing how quickly AND pervasively this switch took place.

In 1991, as I switched careers at IBM from an application programmer (I could see that labor being shifted overseas in coming years) to a systems programmer, I managed to crash and burn a major mainframe machine along with its critical national app. I wasn't too worried about being fired, as I had a 10 year rep. as a pretty damn good employee, I WAS worried about tarnishing my rep, though.

However, my manager just said that IBM knew that it was GROWING strong system programmers, just like trees, and just to be professional in documenting the issue, and keep on trucking.

Within 5 years things had COMPLETELY changed. From the education budget to raises to employee careers and retention. Kind of sad, as IBM has predictably hollowed out its core assets and employee loyalty since.

In fact, IMO, their main profit growth engine is now wage arbitrage via cheap outsourcing. This HAS to trail off within 5 years -- they'll run out of old line skilled employees.

And, from what I've read, this is fairly typical of large white collar companies in general. Even IF we have sustained strong economic growth, I suspect employment numbers and wages in the U.S. will be rather dismal.
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