[AirlinePilot]

All I have done here is tell you why I have done the things I have without any bullshit or brainwashed drivel. This is what I beleive in and how I have chosen to live my life. I am 44 years old, have worked for everything I have. Yes I am conservative in my beliefs but I do not sit at the far right side of that conservatism. I have a graduate level degree, have spent 8 years of my life in service to my country and have traveled around the world. My perspective is based on these things. I'm sure you will choose to find some way to discredit that also. Good luck!

Raphael, you are far into denial about how the world really works. I admit it is not a perfect world. Ghandi was undoubtedly a very great man and his legacy can do nothing but good. Until mankind can live on the same plane (is it possible? I like to think so) then we will have wars and aggresion. You cannot live on this planet and avoid it. At some point we may be able to abolish aggression and wars but until that time a prudent man should be prepared for those who would do harm to others or himself.

I am not trying to change your thoughts, I am trying to get you to see that there are GOOD people in the military and they are not the monsters you claim them to be. You are entitled to your opinions and in a free society debate is a good thing. Think about the origins of this free society we live in. Learn about the GOOD people who have helped it come to be. Think less about destroying the very ideals which allow you to sit home fat dumb and happy and participate in this forum.

I refuse to exchange insults with you. I have treated you with respect and as an adult. I won't stoop to your level of immaturity and slander.

As for your little acronym, I'm sorry again you are far off the mark. I have a modest house, raise three children and am attempting to figure out how to get along after Peak Oil becomes a serious problem.


Threadbear,

I have been around long enough to know that all is not the rosy picture that is painted by the Neo-cons. Please do not lump me into that pile, I don't belong. I do not agree with our policies in Iraq at the moment and haven't for quite some time. I am fairly well read also and have read a few things by Hirsch.

I am far from out of the loop or having lost touch. I am fully aware that the US military are not a bunch of Boy Scouts. I do believe unequivocably that the majority of them are decent and good people who believe in what they are doing.

When was the last time any of you sat down and talked with a soldier and asked them what is going on over there?

[threadbear]

Airline Pilot, I find little fault with the military per se. They're being as ill used as anyone in this nightmare. Many senior brass were against this war right from the start. Did you get a load of the joint chiefs, sitting in the front row of the audience, at the state of the Union speech a few years back? They obviously and clearly hate Bush and the neocons. As a matter of fact, I am counting on your military, particularly the army to launch a coup detat, if the bast**** can't be thrown out by free elections.

I've actually laid in my bed at night and prayed that this happens. Many of the senior officers are being retired or replaced with Christian fundamentalists, so this represents a bit of an impediment. Try to understand that when people talk about the "americans" or the USA, they're generally referring to the govt, not the soldiers or necessarily it's citizens.

[AirlinePilot]

Rapheal,

You speak in some pretty vague abstract ways but I think I get you. I'm perfectly willing to give up my stuff. In fact most of us will give up a good bit of it I think. I see whats coming, a lot of folks don't. I will be able to understand why change must come, a lot of others will not and won't let go so easily.

Living Christs consciousness doesn't require a "green lifestyle". While that is admirable, its not a neccessity according to most religions. In the end we must embrace a sustainable equilibrium with the earth. I agree with you there. Speculating about the breakup of the earth due to ant-christ lifestyles makes good science fiction, you should write a book about it.

[threadbear]

Raphael, You have to cut Americans some slack. They're living in a perfect matrix of illusion supported by the military/indutrial/entertainment complex. Nothing much gets through these filters, plus they are likely the most overworked people on the planet right now and simply can't take on the extra heavy burden of reality.

Airline, We have a much more porous reality filters here in Canada, though it's still a little too self censoring for my tastes. We're exposed to material, through documentaries on television, that you never see south of the border.

[AirlinePilot]

"You have to cut Americans some slack. They're living in a perfect matrix of illusion supported by the military/indutrial/entertainment complex. Nothing much gets through these filters, plus they are likely the most overworked people on the planet right now and simply can't take on the extra heavy burden of reality. "

There are a lot of us who have the time and the resources to glean information from many sources far from the mainstream. I don't deny that the average American Is a brainwashed dolt believing what he sees on the TV or in print media to be Gospel. It is a big problem in my eyes. I place myself somewhere very far away from that camp.

I take great offense when you make blanket statements like the one above. I refuse to reply in kind however as it serves no purpose in furthering debate and learning. I'm interested as to how you come to the conclusion we are "the most overworked people on the planet".

[AirlinePilot]

oops

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AirlinePilot', '"')You have to cut Americans some slack. They're living in a perfect matrix of illusion supported by the military/indutrial/entertainment complex. Nothing much gets through these filters, plus they are likely the most overworked people on the planet right now and simply can't take on the extra heavy burden of reality. "

There are a lot of us who have the time and the resources to glean information from many sources far from the mainstream. I don't deny that the average American Is a brainwashed dolt believing what he sees on the TV or in print media to be Gospel. It is a big problem in my eyes. I place myself somewhere very far away from that camp.

I take great offense when you make blanket statements like the one above. I refuse to reply in kind however as it serves no purpose in furthering debate and learning. I'm interested as to how you come to the conclusion we are "the most overworked people on the planet".

[AirlinePilot]

Oh, I'm not convinced yet, I thought I made that clear. I have HOPE that they will be better off. I think the odds are in thier favor but I harbor no illusions about what could come if things don't go well. In my mind being openly aggressive tends to shut down the flow of communication. It allows emotion to cloud ones judgement and hampers effective communication. Restraint is the better part of valor.

Time to go mow the lawn!

[threadbear]

Airline, We could kiss and make up, but I might give you whisker burn.

[Specop_007]

This is bad!
This could cause otherwise peaceful zealots to strap bombs to themselves and/or their children and go blow people up!

Ok ok, seriously though. It will be interesting to see what all is on those pictures and videotapes.

Article

Judge orders release of Abu Ghraib photos

NEW YORK (AP) -- Pictures of detainee abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released despite government claims that they could damage America's image, a federal judge ruled Thursday.

U.S. District Judge Alvin K. Hellerstein said terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan have proven they "do not need pretexts for their barbarism."

The American Civil Liberties Union sought the release of 87 photographs and four videotapes as part of an October 2003 lawsuit demanding information on the treatment of detainees in U.S. custody and the transfer of prisoners to countries known to use torture. The ACLU contends that prisoner abuse is systemic.

Brutal images of the abuse at the prison have already been widely distributed, but the lawsuit covers additional photos not yet seen by the public.

Gen. Richard B. Myers, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, had maintained in court papers that releasing the photographs would aid al Qaeda recruitment, weaken the Afghan and Iraqi governments and incite riots against U.S. troops.

Hellerstein said in his 50-page opinion that he respected Myers' arguments but noted, "My task is not to defer to our worst fears, but to interpret and apply the law, in this case, the Freedom of Information Act, which advances values important to our society, transparency and accountability in government."

The U.S. Attorney's office in Manhattan, which argued the case for the government, did not immediately comment on the ruling.

[Colorado-Valley]

Seymour Hirsch (and members of Congress) have seen the photos. Hirsch says they are much worse than what was released last year, and they include videos of children being raped to try to force their mothers to talk.

No wonder the Iraqis like us so much ...

I personally don't like secretive government ... let the chips fall where they may. If it embarrasses the Bush people, so be it.

[crude_intentions]

First off Most of the People in the Middle East have either seen or know about these photos and what is on them. This Administration is'nt worried about its image in the Middle East, thats already shot to hell. Its worried about what's going to happen when the American Public gets a look at this stuff.

[gnm]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Colorado-Valley', 'S')eymour Hirsch (and members of Congress) have seen the photos. Hirsch says they are much worse than what was released last year, and they include videos of children being raped to try to force their mothers to talk.

No wonder the Iraqis like us so much ...

I personally don't like secretive government ... let the chips fall where they may. If it embarrasses the Bush people, so be it.

[EnemyCombatant]

IMO, the pix should NOT be released. I feel as if it will only have negative effects.

The pix SHOULD be released for historical/educational purposes if we survive this war. Which we won't.

[threadbear]

By all means, release them! I want to see what gave Hirsch a near nervous breakdown, on camera. Did you see him interviewed after he saw this stuff? I thought he was going to have to be carted away to a a rubber room. The scariest thing, by far, I've seen since the war began was this footage of Hirsch. It was one of those kind of negative epiphanies you experience when you sense a (for lack of better terms, sorry) major political paradigm shift.

And Hirsch was the reporter who was responsible for the My Lai massacre coverage, so he's no sissy. Whoooo Boy. The Bushies are about to lose half of their hard right Christian fundy support. Cool!

[elroy]

They should be released. If anything, the honesty of the US about this might improve the image. Keeping it covered up is worse.

[crude_intentions]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Colorado-Valley', 'S')eymour Hirsch (and members of Congress) have seen the photos. Hirsch says they are much worse than what was released last year, and they include videos of children being raped to try to force their mothers to talk.

No wonder the Iraqis like us so much ...

I personally don't like secretive government ... let the chips fall where they may. If it embarrasses the Bush people, so be it.

[Jake_old]

elroy wrote

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hey should be released. If anything, the honesty of the US about this might improve the image. Keeping it covered up is worse.