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Criminalizing Poverty For Profit Debtors Prisons

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Criminalizing Poverty For Profit Debtors Prisons

Unread postby gollum » Sat 19 Dec 2009, 13:06:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gorm', 'A')m I getting this correctly,that a lot of posters here thinks that driving an uninsured car should be legal? Or a least not punished?



What I am saying is th punishment should fit the crime, and have an approperiate impact on the violator. It bothers me to see wall street high flyers destroy our economy and countless lives, then get bonuses or go on to serve in government, while a poor person could have his life utterly destroyed for not carrying insurance (I'm not condoning driving without liability insurance). I believe the time has come to resist the establishment using all available non violent means, which could include hanging a jury in order to force the state to have another trial. When the state decides to help out the most powerful members of society while destroying the worker the state is no longer legitimate.
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Re: Criminalizing Poverty For Profit Debtors Prisons

Unread postby sittinguy » Sat 19 Dec 2009, 13:19:57

Car insurance is not that exspensive. There are legal alternatives. Here in Florida you can have a motorcycle with no insurance. I don't feel bad for these people that want to spend thier money on stupid stuff. They need to get thier priorities straight
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Re: Criminalizing Poverty For Profit Debtors Prisons

Unread postby Stonemason » Sat 19 Dec 2009, 15:21:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', 'S')orry, but I have to disagree with this article's tone and content.

I hate government constantly raising taxes and overspending, but government actually having meaningful fines for crimes and enforcing them is something that should have happened long ago.

And whining that people shouldn't have to pay for minor crimes like parking tickets and driving without insurance doesn't cut it with me. Citizenship implies responsibility. Can't behave responsibly? Then pay a painful fine, and learn something.

Can't do the fine? Then don't do the crime.

Too many times I hear, for example, some waitress whining in a diner about how she had to go to court for driving without insurance, but the judge let her off. Yeah, too much spent for cigarettes, liquor, etc. to buy auto insurance, so *I* get to pay for it with uninsured motorist insurance.
(And what is the incentive for her to behave responsibly again?)

Or the guy whining about paying a $30 fine for parking in a handicapped space (he's 30ish and apparnently in perfect health). In a rational system, the $1000 fine he'd pay might convince him to park in a legal spot. (Or, perhaps 20 handicapped folks could pound him with their canes, if he couldn't afford the fine).

So - sorry, but whining that citizen irresponsibility is dandy, but government irresponsibility is terrible makes no sense to me. After all, WE ARE the government.


I suppose if those people wrote the laws they'd be more willing to obey them.

Who makes the law? Who gets to decide what is a crime? More things will be criminalised as the government needs to increase spending. Its not like the government ever cuts spending. They may freeze spending, in which case, they will inflat away the worth of your fiat currency.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')or young drivers, the cost of insurance is often more than the cost of the car. Basic insurance should be included in road tax/fuel duties.


Driving to work was half of my monthly wages.
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Re: Criminalizing Poverty For Profit Debtors Prisons

Unread postby mattduke » Sat 19 Dec 2009, 15:36:53

I think anyone who has not purchased driving insurance should be beaten senseless.
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Re: Criminalizing Poverty For Profit Debtors Prisons

Unread postby Gorm » Sat 19 Dec 2009, 15:40:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sittinguy', 'D')riving to work was half of my monthly wages.


I am kind of suprised to read that here.. EDIT, I read it wrong, I replaced "was" with "is" in my reading, sorry
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Re: Criminalizing Poverty For Profit Debtors Prisons

Unread postby mattduke » Sat 19 Dec 2009, 15:43:22

Each car should have a gps device. The instant a driver exceeds the speed limit, he will be instantly fined. The system is linked to his bank account, which is also mandatory. Only speeders would not like this law.
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Re: Criminalizing Poverty For Profit Debtors Prisons

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 19 Dec 2009, 16:05:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')ach car should have a gps device. The instant a driver exceeds the speed limit, he will be instantly fined. The system is linked to his bank account, which is also mandatory. Only speeders would not like this law.

A lot of idiotic ideas will be tried in final fits of the system before it entirely dissipates in more or less chaotic manner.
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Re: Criminalizing Poverty For Profit Debtors Prisons

Unread postby Arsenal » Sat 19 Dec 2009, 16:08:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mattduke', 'E')ach car should have a gps device. The instant a driver exceeds the speed limit, he will be instantly fined. The system is linked to his bank account, which is also mandatory. Only speeders would not like this law.



If that happens I am buying stock in companies that make gps jammers. :twisted:
If the American people ever allow the banks to control issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers occupied. T Jefferson
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Re: Criminalizing Poverty For Profit Debtors Prisons

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 19 Dec 2009, 16:10:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Arsenal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mattduke', 'E')ach car should have a gps device. The instant a driver exceeds the speed limit, he will be instantly fined. The system is linked to his bank account, which is also mandatory. Only speeders would not like this law.



If that happens I am buying stock in companies that make gps jammers. :twisted:

For owning one they will confiscate your car. :twisted:
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Re: Criminalizing Poverty For Profit Debtors Prisons

Unread postby Pretorian » Sat 19 Dec 2009, 16:26:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mattduke', 'E')ach car should have a gps device. The instant a driver exceeds the speed limit, he will be instantly fined. The system is linked to his bank account, which is also mandatory. Only speeders would not like this law.



ok, what about the bank account? Is it mandatory to have one? If so , who will be depositing ?
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Re: Criminalizing Poverty For Profit Debtors Prisons

Unread postby Revi » Sat 19 Dec 2009, 16:33:09

The average person pays about $6000 a year to keep a car on the road. They will be using that money just to eat soon.

I realized that we aren't buying new cars any more now.

We are going to drop back to one car within the next 5 years, then down to a low speed electric, then shanks mare.

Here's a car we built that we can run on a penny a mile. It costs about $250 to insure it:

Image
Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.
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Re: Criminalizing Poverty For Profit Debtors Prisons

Unread postby Gerben » Sat 19 Dec 2009, 17:07:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mattduke', 'E')ach car should have a gps device. The instant a driver exceeds the speed limit, he will be instantly fined. The system is linked to his bank account, which is also mandatory. Only speeders would not like this law.

We'll have a system like that in the Netherlands starting in 2018. It's not even focussed on speeding, it's for a road tax that depends on where you drive and when. When most cars are on the road, during rush our, the roads are so full that speeding is impossible anyway. I wonder if and when they'll start using the gps devices to track speeding. I hope they will.
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Re: Criminalizing Poverty For Profit Debtors Prisons

Unread postby Arsenal » Sat 19 Dec 2009, 17:26:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '
')For owning one they will confiscate your car. :twisted:


I for one accept that challenge. Some states made it illegal to have radar detectors.... People just found a way around the system. Hiding in grills etc.. They will do the same with gps jamming devices.
If the American people ever allow the banks to control issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers occupied. T Jefferson
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Re: Criminalizing Poverty For Profit Debtors Prisons

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 19 Dec 2009, 18:27:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gollum', 'S')o at what point does this start to hit the middle class? And at what point do the authorities start to be seen as an oppressive occupational army?



When we let them get away with oppressing citizens. See above re: anti-blight ordinances, etc.

<<<<"the authorities" can kiss my ass
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Re: Criminalizing Poverty For Profit Debtors Prisons

Unread postby gollum » Sat 19 Dec 2009, 19:34:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mattduke', 'E')ach car should have a gps device. The instant a driver exceeds the speed limit, he will be instantly fined. The system is linked to his bank account, which is also mandatory. Only speeders would not like this law.

Ideas like this scare the hell out of me, giving a dying system more power in peoples lives is not a good idea.
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Re: Criminalizing Poverty For Profit Debtors Prisons

Unread postby bshirt » Sun 20 Dec 2009, 03:48:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gollum', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mattduke', 'E')ach car should have a gps device. The instant a driver exceeds the speed limit, he will be instantly fined. The system is linked to his bank account, which is also mandatory. Only speeders would not like this law.

Ideas like this scare the hell out of me, giving a dying system more power in peoples lives is not a good idea.


That scares the heck out of me too. The idea of giving even more power to TPTB is beyond bizarre.

They're the last people on the planet I ever want to reason with. Ever try talking sense to a bureaucrat? The average gerbil is a far better bet.
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Re: Criminalizing Poverty For Profit Debtors Prisons

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sun 20 Dec 2009, 06:04:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Arsenal', '
')I for one accept that challenge. Some states made it illegal to have radar detectors.... People just found a way around the system. Hiding in grills etc.. They will do the same with gps jamming devices.

Radar/Laser detectors are passive devices.

On the other hand GPS jamming devices are RF emitters, so they are very easy to localize.

Hiding them in weird place won't wash.

The only way around the problem would rest in your ability to disable your GPS transmitter in a fashion which remind natural failure to stay beyond suspicion, should such fault be found.
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Re: Criminalizing Poverty For Profit Debtors Prisons

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sun 20 Dec 2009, 06:16:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bshirt', '
')That scares the heck out of me too. The idea of giving even more power to TPTB is beyond bizarre.

They're the last people on the planet I ever want to reason with. Ever try talking sense to a bureaucrat? The average gerbil is a far better bet.

Personally it does not scare me.
I have lived through collapse of one system (communism in Poland) and it can be a fun.
The more complex systems are going to be built to maintain collapsing status quo going , the more grotesque and wide spread failures you are going to observe.

Ultimately it is easy to realize that advanced technological civilization is bankrupt so it is reasonable to expect that its vast infrastructures will gradually fail as time pass.
After a decade or so providing a stable electricity supply in first world may well become to be a challenge and two decades from now on speeding will hardly be possible due to unmitigable deterioration of quality of road network.
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Re: Criminalizing Poverty For Profit Debtors Prisons

Unread postby MarkJ » Sun 20 Dec 2009, 06:36:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')hen we let them get away with oppressing citizens. See above re: anti-blight ordinances, etc.


Since many low income vehicle owners are renters, their landlords or property managers often receive the anti-blight unregistered vehicle ordinance warnings and fines. Because of this, the property managers or landlords often make the tenant remove/junk/sell the vehicle, or have the vehicle towed long before the city issues warnings, fines or tows and impounds the vehicle.

Some of the tow/storage services used by the cities are buddies with, or related to cops and code enforcement officials responsible for calling tow services.

Another issue for renters is that working on vehicles is often prohibited by their landlord, or they don't have the space, tools or equipment to work on vehicles.

One of our employees was changing an alternator and wiring recently, but their apartment building property manager stopped them in the middle of the job after being reported by another tenant.
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Re: Criminalizing Poverty For Profit Debtors Prisons

Unread postby MarkJ » Sun 20 Dec 2009, 06:55:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he average person pays about $6000 a year to keep a car on the road. They will be using that money just to eat soon.


We have employees that spend substantially more than that on taxis.

We had an office worker that quit her job since her taxi service rates went from $30 per day to $40 per day.

She got a much lower paying local part-time job within walking distance, moved into rent subsidized housing and applied for cash assistance, medicaid, food stamps, daycare and HEAP.
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