Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Cause & effect: riots, rioting and rioters pt 1 (merged) Arc

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby Micki » Thu 14 May 2009, 19:49:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', '
')
Have you ever been present when someone suddenly reaches for a hidden weapon? It occurs in a split second and it sucks. Someone often dies. This was exactly the scenario under which such a sudden move was likely to occur. This cop knew it too, and didn't want to have to shoot the suspect clearly instead choosing to stun him while alone with him those few seconds. It was only reasonable and proper under the circumstances. Plus, the suspect was uninjured. So all you Monday morning quarterbacks need to please give this heroic cop a break. It's LA County so the officer may be charged and the felon may receive a cash settlement which will be the only injustices stemming from this arrest.


Aha! So the boot in the face was to prevent him from reaching for a hidden weapon.
Just like all those people who we covered here on PO who got Tazed.
Shouldn't he kick him unconcious then to be on the safe side? Just a leather to the face and maybe knock out a tooth might just aggravave the man.

Personally I would have thought that if the cop was worried about hidden weapons he would have his weapon ready and he would shout to the other person to show his hands. After all noone is that quick on pulling a weapon, aiming and firing that a ready police officer hadn't already taken him out. And in such case it would have been defence. No sorry, I just don't see the boot in the face being either proper punishment (as an earlier poster suggested as he didn't want to pay for three meals a day) and I don't see how it can be some preventive measure in suspicion of hidden weapon. What you are advocating is carte blanche rights for cops to beat up based on some very loose justifications.

And thos who thin the penal system isn't punishment enough, then it is the penal system that needs to be changed. It is not the duty of the police to also deliver the punishments.

Overall, I am very disappointed to see what I thought were supporters of liberties and justice become supporters of a police state without proper legal process as soon as there was a case where they suspect the arrested person is a criminal. EXACTLY the same kind of sentiment that justified and supported torture of goat herders. Hang your heads in shame.
Micki
 

Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Thu 14 May 2009, 21:03:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'E')ver had a firearm suddenly aimed at you?


A couple of times yeah. By cops. And I gotta tell you, all that protect and serve song and dance really didn't make me feel any better about it.

I'm definitely not crying for the scum bag. He deserved a good kick and much worse. The thing that upsets me about it is that it's a really slippery slope when you start encouraging cops to inflict punishment on the spot. Where do you draw the line? It's ok to smash somebody for reckless driving but not if you see them smoking a joint? We all love Dirty Harry movies, but in the real world guilt and innocence are a lot more complex to figure out. That's why punishments are decided carefully and with deliberation by a jury of your peers, not by some amped up cop surging with adrenaline. And BTW, I totally do not buy that what that cop did was in any way about protecting himself. If you're scared the guy is going to pull a weapon, you hold him at gun point from a safe distance until your buddies arrive. You don't get into contact distance if you're worried the guy's got weapons and you're all alone.

I say send the scum bag to prison, but consider disciplinary action against the cop too. He got caught up in the moment and behaved poorly.
"We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
User avatar
smallpoxgirl
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7258
Joined: Mon 08 Nov 2004, 04:00:00

Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby ColossalContrarian » Thu 14 May 2009, 22:08:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Micki', '
')And thos who thin the penal system isn't punishment enough, then it is the penal system that needs to be changed. It is not the duty of the police to also deliver the punishments.

Overall, I am very disappointed to see what I thought were supporters of liberties and justice become supporters of a police state without proper legal process as soon as there was a case where they suspect the arrested person is a criminal. EXACTLY the same kind of sentiment that justified and supported torture of goat herders. Hang your heads in shame.


(shamed) but now let’s come back to reality….

Justice was the old paradigm and unfortunately this country is broke. How do you think we’ll be able to afford a police force at all in 5 years? The last 30 years of justice were great but we were rich then. Now this country is descending into the third world and criminals are winning.

The criminals are winning. From Wall Street to Los Angeles and we as a society have been rewarding them every step of the way.

It’s funny how people think this country will become a police state. This country can’t afford to become a police state… if anything it will break into pieces like Nouth/South first.
ColossalContrarian
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1374
Joined: Tue 20 Jun 2006, 03:00:00

Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby eastbay » Thu 14 May 2009, 22:12:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ColossalContrarian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Micki', 'A')nd thos who thin the penal system isn't punishment enough, then it is the penal system that needs to be changed. It is not the duty of the police to also deliver the punishments. Overall, I am very disappointed to see what I thought were supporters of liberties and justice become supporters of a police state without proper legal process as soon as there was a case where they suspect the arrested person is a criminal. EXACTLY the same kind of sentiment that justified and supported torture of goat herders. Hang your heads in shame.

(shamed) but now let’s come back to reality….Justice was the old paradigm and unfortunately this country is broke. How do you think we’ll be able to afford a police force at all in 5 years? The last 30 years of justice were great but we were rich then. Now this country is descending into the third world and criminals are winning.
The criminals are winning. From Wall Street to Los Angeles and we as a society have been rewarding them every step of the way. It’s funny how people think this country will become a police state. This country can’t afford to become a police state… if anything it will break into pieces like Nouth/South first.

Very nicely put!

In 10 years people will probably long for the perceived sense of security offered by a police state. They won't get what they want because it'll be prohibitively expensive and they'll have to perform ( 8O ) on their own (and it'll be ugly) to create a safe zone near their places of residence.
Got Dharma?

Everything is Impermanent. Shakyamuni Buddha
User avatar
eastbay
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7186
Joined: Sat 18 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
Top

Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby ColossalContrarian » Thu 14 May 2009, 22:18:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'N')o sorry, I didn't read it. I thought you were talking about someone fleeing on foot. :oops:

Well if you watch the video what the cop did was really bad but I don’t want to see gangster get a million dollars out of this. Maybe he could get a special cell in prison or something.

I think what the police should do to earn extra money is to charge the TV stations who film some sort of tax or fee. Like the City of LA owns rights to the images the news camera’s capture. Then the criminal could get a piece of the profits too since he participated.

Kinda like the movie Death Race.
ColossalContrarian
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1374
Joined: Tue 20 Jun 2006, 03:00:00
Top

Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Thu 14 May 2009, 22:23:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ColossalContrarian', 'I')t’s funny how people think this country will become a police state. This country can’t afford to become a police state… if anything it will break into pieces like Nouth/South first.


You think those options are mutually exclusive? Civil unrest and police states go hand in hand.
"We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
User avatar
smallpoxgirl
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7258
Joined: Mon 08 Nov 2004, 04:00:00
Top

Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby ColossalContrarian » Thu 14 May 2009, 23:27:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'Y')ou think those options are mutually exclusive? Civil unrest and police states go hand in hand.

I agree. I think there will be a mild shift toward sectarian violence over the years and eventually green zones. The dichotomy could be pretty extreme in certain parts of the country. I guess it depends on what you’d rather be a part of -or forced to be a part of for that matter.
ColossalContrarian
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1374
Joined: Tue 20 Jun 2006, 03:00:00
Top

Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Thu 14 May 2009, 23:37:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ColossalContrarian', 'I') guess it depends on what you’d rather be a part of -or forced to be a part of for that matter.


"I was not born to be forced. I will breathe after my own fashion." Henry David Thoreau
"We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
User avatar
smallpoxgirl
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7258
Joined: Mon 08 Nov 2004, 04:00:00
Top

Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby alpha480v » Fri 15 May 2009, 05:21:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uNkNowN ElEmEnt', 'O')h come on! Cops are hired based on their propensity for violence. It doesn't make any sense to hire guys who will give the beat down on some perp then fine, suspend or fire them for the very thing they werre hired for in the first place.
Its you who doesn't see the reality of the motives behind the whole concept of having an armed police force. You really think they are there to serve and protect, but did you stop to ask who they are charged with serving and protecting? Seriously. The cop did just what they want and train him to do.
You don't put a guard dog in a store then expect him not to do what you've trained him for. Its doesn't equate.

Yeah how foolish of me to think that it was wrong for the cop to kick a suspect that was obviously down and surrendering. Should have just shot him right there.
It's you who don't see reality. So it's OK for a cop to take the law in his own hands according to you? The guy was down and should not have been kicked period. Case closed. That's how lawsuits are started. When will it stop if it is OK to do this stuff ? I can see it now. Next we will have cops beating people up for jaywalking. But that's all right with you. According to your logic, (or lack thereof), we can have the cops be the jugde, jury and executioner right on the spot. Bill of rights or Miranda? We don't need no stinkin bill of rights or Miranda!
Last edited by alpha480v on Fri 15 May 2009, 05:37:46, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
alpha480v
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat 29 Jan 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Western NY
Top

Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby alpha480v » Fri 15 May 2009, 05:34:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'E')ver had a firearm suddenly aimed at you?
A couple of times yeah. By cops. And I gotta tell you, all that protect and serve song and dance really didn't make me feel any better about it.

I'm definitely not crying for the scum bag. He deserved a good kick and much worse. The thing that upsets me about it is that it's a really slippery slope when you start encouraging cops to inflict punishment on the spot. Where do you draw the line? It's ok to smash somebody for reckless driving but not if you see them smoking a joint? We all love Dirty Harry movies, but in the real world guilt and innocence are a lot more complex to figure out. That's why punishments are decided carefully and with deliberation by a jury of your peers, not by some amped up cop surging with adrenaline. And BTW, I totally do not buy that what that cop did was in any way about protecting himself. If you're scared the guy is going to pull a weapon, you hold him at gun point from a safe distance until your buddies arrive. You don't get into contact distance if you're worried the guy's got weapons and you're all alone.

Good post and I agree SPG. My point exactly in my first post in this thread. I could care less about the scumbag criminal. I care about my rights as an honest, law abiding citizen. And if we have vigilantism taking over, then where will it stop? Will I be chased down and kicked next for jaywalking across my street?
User avatar
alpha480v
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat 29 Jan 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Western NY
Top

Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby Blueberry » Fri 15 May 2009, 06:16:23

If you interpret the cops actions as brutality it goes one way. If you look at him trying to prevent being hurt, it goes another.

It wasn't exactly Rodney King. He kicked the suspect once.

I don't know if he was trying to quickly make sure that the suspect was mentally and physically subdued or if he was punishing him or frustrated or what.

It's really easy to scream brutality, but I've seen other situations that I personally thought were much more cut and dry.
Summertime, and the livin' is easy...
User avatar
Blueberry
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 179
Joined: Fri 05 Aug 2005, 03:00:00

Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Fri 15 May 2009, 08:11:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('alpha480v', ' ')And if we have vigilantism taking over, then where will it stop? Will I be chased down and kicked next for jaywalking across my street?


Or whacked on with batons to shut you up because the mayor doesn't like what you have to say about the Democratic National Convention. That also happened to me. We're living in an era where governments are becoming increasingly interested in stifling and trying to prohibit political speech. If you encourage the sort of police force that is accustomed to meting out it's own punishments, that easily gets applied to anyone who wanders out of the free speech ghetto. Political free speech is the life blood of any free society, but pretty soon you find that the first time you try to say something a cop wants to kick you in the face. Not a good scene.
"We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
User avatar
smallpoxgirl
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7258
Joined: Mon 08 Nov 2004, 04:00:00
Top

Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby eastbay » Fri 15 May 2009, 10:12:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('alpha480v', ' ')And if we have vigilantism taking over, then where will it stop? Will I be chased down and kicked next for jaywalking across my street?
Or whacked on with batons to shut you up because the mayor doesn't like what you have to say about the Democratic National Convention. That also happened to me. We're living in an era where governments are becoming increasingly interested in stifling and trying to prohibit political speech. If you encourage the sort of police force that is accustomed to meting out it's own punishments, that easily gets applied to anyone who wanders out of the free speech ghetto. Political free speech is the life blood of any free society, but pretty soon you find that the first time you try to say something a cop wants to kick you in the face. Not a good scene.

I've watched this video several times and see nothing in it pertaining to free speech. What I clearly and unmistakably see is a brave cop successfully apprehending a very dangerous suspect with no one getting injured or killed. A rare outcome in a case like this. He should receive a commendation.
Got Dharma?

Everything is Impermanent. Shakyamuni Buddha
User avatar
eastbay
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7186
Joined: Sat 18 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
Top

Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby eastbay » Fri 15 May 2009, 10:25:17

http://www.sgvtribune.com/news/ci_12371 ... id=1964410


Oh, and here's another reader poll from El Monte, the community in which the chase occurred. The article offers additional insight into the dangerous and violent street gang in which the suspect was a well known member.
Got Dharma?

Everything is Impermanent. Shakyamuni Buddha
User avatar
eastbay
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7186
Joined: Sat 18 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: One Mile From the Columbia River

Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby rangerone314 » Fri 15 May 2009, 10:48:25

Easy way to end street violence and get rid of gangs: pass law mandating death sentence for being a member of a criminal street gang, and base it off of the RICO concept of being part of a conspiracy. Then all you have to do is have a legal finding of street gang as being criminal and then automatically all the members are guilty. And PRESTO: execute all the gang members.

This would remove illegal drugs off the streets by ending the people willing to deal in them permanently, end the problems across the border with Mexico, and ensure our prisons don't remain crowded.

It does seem to be the logical thing to do if you want to eliminate crime. If you want to end malaria, you don't take a fly swatter and chase after mosquitos, you drain the dang swamp.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
User avatar
rangerone314
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4105
Joined: Wed 03 Dec 2008, 04:00:00
Location: Maryland

Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Fri 15 May 2009, 12:55:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', ' ')What I clearly and unmistakably see is a brave cop successfully apprehending a very dangerous suspect with no one getting injured or killed. A rare outcome in a case like this. He should receive a commendation.
OK EB, you clearly know something about these situations. You tell me. If a guy is proned out on the grass. You're afraid he might have a weapon. Your back up and a K9 unit are less than a block away. What's the appropriate response? Do you cover the guy and wait for your backup to cuff him? Do you wait for the dog? Do you run up and kick him in the face and then stand there laughing about it? Every bit of training I have about how to deal with a potentially dangerous assailant says you create distance. Obviously the cops aren't going to run away, but they can certainly wait for backup.

Cop at contact range vs. perp with knife? Who dies? Flip a coin. Maybe both.
Cop at 10 yards vs. perp with knife on the ground? Perp dies cop uninjured.
Cop at 10 yards vs. perp on ground with gun? probably same. Cop is a better shot, already has his weapon drawn, and isn't in a weird posture. Most likely dead perp and uninjured cop.

If the cop thought the guy was armed, he should be reprimanded for getting in close with the guy and risking his life.

The only way this doesn't pertain to you and me is if you assume that the cops will always designate you as being "the good guy". That's not my experience of cops. Sometimes speaking your mind when TPTB don't want you to makes you "the bad guy" and that same cop sees absolutely nothing wrong with clubbing you like a harp seal. Been there. Done that. Spending a week with the LAPD looking for a chance to beat you bloody and the homeless protecting you, really changes your perspective on these things.
"We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
User avatar
smallpoxgirl
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7258
Joined: Mon 08 Nov 2004, 04:00:00
Top

Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby eastbay » Fri 15 May 2009, 13:47:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'O')K EB, you clearly know something about these situations. You tell me. If a guy is proned out on the grass. You're afraid he might have a weapon. Your back up and a K9 unit are less than a block away. What's the appropriate response? Do you cover the guy and wait for your backup to cuff him? Do you wait for the dog? Do you run up and kick him in the face and then stand there laughing about it?

Creating distance isn't always an option. Each case is unique. Here I see a running cop rounding a corner and boom! is suddenly and unexpectedly sharing air with a dangerous gangster who's on the ground. On the ground doesn't mean 'out of danger'. The danger remains as high as it can get until the guy is cuffed and searched. The cop has a fiduciary DUTY to conclude the event safely and swiftly which he thankfully did! :)

As I've mentioned, no one was hurt, and we all have a happy conclusion to what could have been a terrible tragedy. What we saw on the video was nothing less than proper and most people in the town of El Monte apparently feel similarly.
Got Dharma?

Everything is Impermanent. Shakyamuni Buddha
User avatar
eastbay
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7186
Joined: Sat 18 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
Top

Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 15 May 2009, 13:58:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'C')reating distance isn't always an option.

How was the cop prevented from maintaining distance in this instance? Didn't he need to approach the "perp" in order to kick him?
Ludi
 
Top

Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby eastbay » Fri 15 May 2009, 14:27:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'H')ow was the cop prevented from maintaining distance in this instance? Didn't he need to approach the "perp" in order to kick him?

Q #1: The purpose of a chase is to 'capture'.

Q #2: Yes, that appeared to be the case. Every arrest requires an 'approach'. How would you like to be the one to approach an exceptionally dangerous gangster with 'flores' tattooed across his neck? It's why all societies pay these few brave officers who often thanklessly perform this ugly yet badly needed task. I suspect few worldwide handle such cases as 'gently' as cops in the USA. :)
Got Dharma?

Everything is Impermanent. Shakyamuni Buddha
User avatar
eastbay
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7186
Joined: Sat 18 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
Top

Re: There will be riots in LA

Unread postby dunewalker » Fri 15 May 2009, 15:10:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'I')'ve watched this video several times and see nothing in it pertaining to free speech. What I clearly and unmistakably see is a brave cop successfully apprehending a very dangerous suspect with no one getting injured or killed. A rare outcome in a case like this. He should receive a commendation.

You don't seem to get it. This is not about free speech, it's about due process, the judicial system. Cops do not have the right to assume the role of judge, jury and executioner. You imply that you are a veteran cop. If so, maybe a refresher course is in order as to your duties and responsibilities to the public. This thread has sufficiently pointed out how that cop in the video, given that's all the information we have to work with, has exceeded his need for force to safely subdue a dangerous suspect. If you re-read the thread, you might learn something about citizen rights. It was only through chance that the suspect did not suffer severe injuries such as a broken neck from the sadistic abuse inflicted by the cop subsequent to the suspect surrendering to law enforcement in the approved manner, spread-eagled on the ground with both arms and legs visible. Backup was seconds away, as we witnessed in the video, to complete the process of safe apprehension. He had no need to engage the suspect without assistance, to handcuff him. Due process does not depend upon the nature of the alleged crime, it is a right guaranteed to all. Your comments do not recognize or respect this legal right, in fact you advocate ignoring it. I'm sure you'll find plenty of support on the internet for sadistic abuse by cops, but that does not make it legal.
"Wilderness is another civilization apart from our own." - H.D. Thoreau
User avatar
dunewalker
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1253
Joined: Thu 30 Jun 2005, 03:00:00
Location: northern California
Top

PreviousNext

Return to Open Topic Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron