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Book: "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn

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Re: Ishmael

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 11 May 2009, 11:55:18

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Re: Ishmael

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 11 May 2009, 12:42:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'E')cology is even more threatening to the reignaing paradigm than Evolution.


The difference as I see it is that evolution will always be twisted into an ideology by those that refuse to believe it. Ecology on the other hand ecompasses all the "biblical" consequences like landslides, floods, famine, plagues, fires, etc. when we disrupt its balance. The silver lining in all the ecological disruptions unfolding in this century is that the consequences will transcend ideology, the current paradigm and may even touch the religious beliefs of the masses. Those consequences will bring about a cultural shift that could encompass many of the ideas expressed in Ishmael. We will not however transform collectively solely from ideas in a book, or from the charisma of a president or visionary scientists until ecological consequences provide the platform from which visionaries like Quinn and others can then communicate at large. At the moment those that understand represent an insignifigant influence on the collective culture. We are a weak meme still. Threats like peak oil and climate change are vague and only "threats". Cultures don't shift with threats. They transition as a result of consequences....
Patiently awaiting the pathogens. Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
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Re: Ishmael

Unread postby mos6507 » Mon 11 May 2009, 21:54:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')The main "badness" I see of work is that people are often coerced into it, and spend most of their waking hours doing something they don't enjoy, or even actively dislike. To me that seems tragic. If billions of tragic lives aren't "bad," well, I guess I'm not sure what the definition of "bad" is.


Try having no job, being a homeless kid in Calcutta forced to sell a kidney for money. To someone like him, flipping burgers at McD's would be a dream come true. Sometimes it pays to count your blessings.
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Re: Ishmael

Unread postby Stonemason » Mon 11 May 2009, 23:30:27

Mos, respecting your comment on having difficulty with knowing who is speaking, I would suggest downloading one of the audiobook versions available via bittorrent. This was my first taking in of the novel, and can thinking back now see the possibility for that problem.
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Re: Ishmael

Unread postby paimei01 » Tue 12 May 2009, 04:11:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '
')Try having no job, being a homeless kid in Calcutta forced to sell a kidney for money. To someone like him, flipping burgers at McD's would be a dream come true. Sometimes it pays to count your blessings.


Why do homeless kids exist in Calcutta ? The answer is the capitalist system in which they live. Do you really think that if India wanted , they could not house everybody ? But as I said in another thread - countries do not exist anymore, just land to be bought, and the people in those countries are not "people" anymore just some type of "human resources". The system rules the earth. India will not move an inch if the rulers of the earth do not allow it.

Look at America, there are so many houses that people live in tents !
- Why do you live in tents, are there not enough houses ?
- Yes there are, but we play this "Economy" game.

And the system is the "civilization", what it has turned into. It all started a long time ago. Must look for the cause of all things, not just solve the effects - solve the problem of the homeless kid with a job at McDonalds. Does nothing to solve the real problem and the problems of millions like him. We are going to live in the "Soylent Green" world.
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough homes ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game". Now it's "Crisis" time !Too many houses! Yes, we are insane!
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Re: Ishmael

Unread postby mos6507 » Tue 12 May 2009, 11:11:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('paimei01', '
')We are going to live in the "Soylent Green" world.


And who is there to answer the plaintive cries of the righteous martyrs who have been and shall be so victimized by this cruel modern world we live in? Nobody. Nobody's going to make anybody's life better but yourself. People have to deal with the chips they are dealt. History is littered with people who pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and made a full and rich life for themselves within the confines of "mother culture". When you get too mired in idealism you wind up missing out on life by obssessing on what you see as imperfect instead of working on bettering your lot in life as best you can and learning to appreciate the things so many people take for granted.

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Re: Ishmael

Unread postby paimei01 » Wed 13 May 2009, 04:38:34

You are right :) Who am I trying to save ? The ones that when I tell them about peak oil say "interesting" then they go back to argue about what car is more cool ?
I feel kind of sorry only for the people who lose their way of life in some villages and must move to cities to take some slave jobs to survive. Losing any community. They have no choice. And the children working in the capitalist system in poor countries. Not by choice.
Many around me can't be bothered even to try to understand what I talk about.
For some time I post stuff like this mostly because I am bored,and at work right now. Stopped posting in my "free" time. I used to post about Ishmael and such things on many forums. Wonder if I have changed anything. Maybe when enough people read Ishmael and understand it, the world will change ? :)
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough homes ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game". Now it's "Crisis" time !Too many houses! Yes, we are insane!
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Re: Ishmael

Unread postby paimei01 » Wed 13 May 2009, 06:44:47

Maybe not information and books like "Ishmael" will save/change the world. Can't fight this system, must ignore it. People will. When the system will collapse people will become tribes again, this time called "gangs". After some time of chaos everyone will be in a tribe/gang. And they will function as tribes, with gift based economies inside and war outside. Or maybe peace and tribal unions...
Search for Somalia on wikipedia. People can live with no state. But I presume they will fight for resources when such things as a better piece of land or access to water becomes very important.
Look how some people in Rio de Janeiro organized themselves into gangs and need no police among them. They did not organize themselves that way with the intention of attacking the system. Just for a better life for themselves.
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough homes ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game". Now it's "Crisis" time !Too many houses! Yes, we are insane!
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Re: Ishmael

Unread postby mos6507 » Wed 13 May 2009, 10:37:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('paimei01', '
')Search for Somalia on wikipedia. People can live with no state.


Somalia's you're idea of a neo-primitivist utopia? Count me out.
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Re: Ishmael

Unread postby paimei01 » Thu 14 May 2009, 04:19:12

No. Can't write anything without having explanations to give...It's still a capitalist system, and everything else.

Just that people there live with no state, and they are not in a Mad max world. People want to live and live good. After some war Somalia is now divided among a few tribes. The armed people don't go around killing and raping. Why would they ? After a time a resistance will appear against them. It's easier to charge a protection tax. And they really protect the people from bandits, because if bandits appear they could become a challenge to them - the bandits in charge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy_in_Somalia
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')omalia has some of the best telecommunications in Africa, with a handful of companies ready to wire home or office and provide crystal-clear service, including international long distance, for about $10 a month."[17] Installation time for a land-line is just three days, while in the neighboring Kenya waiting lists are many years long.[12] In other African countries public monopolies and licensing restrictions raise prices and hamper the spread of telecommunications.[12] Abdullahi Mohammed Hussein of Telecom Somalia stated that "the government post and telecoms company used to have a monopoly but after the regime was toppled, we were free to set up our own business",[18] The World Bank reported in 2007 that only about 1.5% of the population had a telephone[15] resulting in the emergence of ten fiercely competitive telephone companies.[19] According to the CIA World Factbook, private telephone companies "offer service in most major cities" via wireless technology, charging "the lowest international rates on the continent",[3] while The New York Times has noted the private provision of mail services.[2] The Economist cited the telephone industry in anarchic Somalia as "a vivid illustration of the way in which governments…can often be more of a hindrance than a help.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')aalkacyo, a desert town in the central Somalia, was provided with streetlights by local entrepreneur Abdirizak Osman, who expanded his enterprises from telecommunications to power generators, not only lighting the town but also supplying free electricity to the local hospital.[19]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ow there are approximately fifteen airlines, over sixty aircraft, six international destinations, and more domestic routes in Somalia. Private airlines, including Air Somalia and Daallo Airlines, serve several domestic locations as well as Djibouti, the United Arab Emirates, Paris and London. According to a 2005 World Bank report, the "private airline business in Somalia is now thriving with more than five carriers and price wars between the companies."[22] Mohammed Yassin Olad, owner of Daallo Airlines, has stated that the absence of government has led to both difficulties and benefits, and commented that "corruption is not a problem, because there is no government…We build the airports and we service the airports and we only fly when we are sure it's safe".[22] A small fishing village prior to the fall of the state, Bosaso developed a lucrative import/export trade of U.S. $15 million per year out of its port during the 1990s.[23] The population grew in eight years from 5,000 to 150,000, sustained by public services provided on a competitive basis by private enterprise, and court systems, schools and a university founded by the local community
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough homes ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game". Now it's "Crisis" time !Too many houses! Yes, we are insane!
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Re: Ishmael

Unread postby mos6507 » Thu 14 May 2009, 11:34:33

I could present endless reasons why "anarchy" in the US would not be something to welcome with open arms. People will see whatever they want to see as far as the various -isms they see as the panacea for the world's ills. When the system fails there will be no shortage of zealots who want to replace it with their idea of utopia regardless of the hit:miss ratio of that -ism throughout history. Many will want to bring that about through the barrel of a gun with the notion that the ends justify the means. Not only is this painful and messy, to me this just kind of beats around the bush of the main problem of overshoot and energy descent. Sustainability is more a state of mind than a byproduct of particular governmental structures. You can have sustainable capitalist republics and unsustainable communism. It's all about the masses recognizing and respecting natural limits.
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Re: Ishmael

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 14 May 2009, 12:54:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', ' ')You can have sustainable capitalist republics



Can you have sustainable capitalism? It seems like that would only be possible if the ideas of "profit" and "growth" are removed from the idea of capitalism.

More discussion of how to achieve a sustainable capitalism would be appreciated. Thanks. :)

Since this is a Quinn thread I should mention it doesn't seem like DQ has anything against capitalism. His book "Beyond Civilization" is in part about tribal capitalism*. I don't have a copy of the book and it's been a few years since I read it, so I don't remember what he might have said about the problematic nature of the profit and growth aspects of capitalism. Personally, I'm not convinced profit and growth are necessary parts of capitalism, but they are typical, and perhaps the largest motivations in this system.

*not necessarily an oxymoron! :P
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Re: Ishmael

Unread postby mos6507 » Thu 14 May 2009, 14:41:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')Can you have sustainable capitalism? It seems like that would only be possible if the ideas of "profit" and "growth" are removed from the idea of capitalism.


It would be very different from what we're familiar with. Mostly barter, small privately owned companies, steady state. No stock market.

The point I'm trying to make is that gross consumption matters more than system of government. While some systems of government may tend to lead to more consumption than others, restraint can be applied if there is a will to do so.

In the tribal past, if you overshot the carrying capacity you got near immediate feedback. You started dying pretty fast. That is equivalent to the "fuel gauge" in order for us to self-regulate, and forms the linchpin for arguments that humanity needs to remain at the tribal level to deal with our cognitive limits.

One thing modern life has going for it is the ability to process large datasets. Something like the Limits to Growth model from nearly 40 years ago was available to us. Now surely models of sustainability can be much more accurate and detailed. So if we are able to trust the models then we should be able to know where the boundaries lie. I guess you could call it Orwellian in a way if you want to track all the consumption inputs and outputs, but that's really what you'd want to do if you want to keep humanity on a sustainable path. Something equivalent to that website that always says you are using up more than 2 earths. We need metrics. In the lack of them we just naturally overconsume. So I guess I'm advocating voluntary consumption limits and taxes when going over them. We should have people pay today for the ecological impact of what they do. That would provide the shock to the system like a deer hitting an electric fence. After a while you won't hit the fence anymore. But it's much more humane than going out there and thinning the herd with a shotgun.
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Re: Ishmael

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 14 May 2009, 15:13:02

100% agree with what you've said there, mos. :)
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Re: Ishmael

Unread postby paimei01 » Sun 17 May 2009, 15:11:29

In childhood, a modern person travels an enormous distance between stone-age primitive creature and responsible
contemporary citizen. When confronted with the awesome power of civilization whose first
representatives are parents, teachers, priests (and, later on, police officers, legislators and
bosses)the child faces, psychologically, the same situation as its tribal ancestors, namely,
conform to the dictates of civilization or die. The helplessness of childhood makes the threat of
bodily harm or loss of love, which is used by the parents and others to enforce civilized
morality and civilized education, a traumatic experience. The developing little person becomes
afraid to express its own tribal nature. There is much fear that lies at the bottom of becoming
a civilized adult.

When the child becomes aware of ideas and impulses that oppose the dictates of civilization,
s/he experiences anxiety, which is the signal for danger. It is not the insights and urges
themselves that the child fears, but rather the reaction to them on the part of those in charge.
Since the child cannot escape from those who control its life, s/he runs away from dangerous
thoughts and feelings. In other words, the child institutes repression of its primitive self. Tribal
ideas are now isolated, cut off from awareness, and unable to properly influence the future
course of events.

-----------------------------------

The False Self

We have internalized our masters, which is a well-known psychological response to trauma.
When faced with overwhelming terror, the human mind splits, with part of itself modeling itself
after the oppressor. This is an act of appeasement:
Look, the mind says in effect, I am like you, so do not harm me. As a result of the civilizing
process, together with this psychological defense mechanism known as identification with the
aggressor, we now hear the alien voices of the various representatives of civilization in our
heads. Because of these alien ego-identifications we no longer hear our own tribal/primal
voice. In order for deep thinking to commence again in the human mind, it is necessary to
break down these internal authorities, overcome the resistances, that prevent tribal ideas from
coming to consciousness. The modern problem is not simply that we do not listen to primal
ideas, but rather that primal ideas are unable to come to consciousness at all, because of the
internal counterforces, or ego-alien identifications, that contradict and overpower them.
These ego-alien identifications, built up over the course of a lifetime, cohere and form a
distinct, circumscribed personality, or false self, that represents and enforces the rules and
regulations of civilization. This false self is observable in the frozen facial expressions,
stereotypic gestures, and unexamined behavioral patterns of the general public. This false self
determines much of our everyday lives, so that we are seldom the origin of our actions. We
lapse into the false self at the first sign of danger, under stress, or simply because it is the
path of least resistance. In this unthinking mode of social role playing, we internally reproduce
our own oppression.

Trauma is a necessary part of civilizing someone, because a natural, maturing individual will
not otherwise accept the ideals of civilization. These ideals - hierarchy, property, the State, for
example - are so contrary to our tribal nature that they must be forcibly thrust into the human
mind. This causes the mind to rupture, to divide its territorythat is, to surrender a part of itself
to the invading enemy. For this reason, the false self is never really integrated into the human
mind, but instead occupies the mind, as a foreign body, standing apart from and above
normal/healthy mental life.

The Original Self

Beneath the false self, there still lives the original identity of the person. This original self is
older than, and other than, the foreign personality that has been imposed upon it. This original
self or primitive ego is the person one was in childhoodbefore the mind was ruptured by the
trauma of civilizationand the person one still is at the core of one's personal identity. This
original self is closely connected to the oldest layer of the psyche. It is an individually
differentiated portion of the primitive mindthe first, personal organization of the primitive mind.

As such, it has direct access to primal wisdom, an internally directed perceptivity, that permits
the entry into consciousness, as well as the passage into activity, of tribal ideas.
In civilization, this original self is caught in the middle of a war between the status quo false
self and the uprising of the tribal self. Even when an individual succeeds in holding its own
personal identity, refusing to slip into the false self, the primal voice may remain unheard,
smothered by the false self. As a distinct, circumscribed personality, the false self achieves a
counter-will of its own that is always operational in the sick mind, at least in terms of
repressing tribal ideas. Tribal ideas threaten civilization, so they cannot pass through the
censorship of the false self, which functions specifically to ward off all serious challenges to
civilization.
Furthermore, the false self tends to become more autonomous and extensive, owing to
improved forms of social control and manipulation of consciousness in the modern
worldadvertising, for example. Once the mind is broken, the false self, backed by the
relentless power of civilization, takes over our lives. The original or primary self has become
autistic, or severely withdrawn from active engagement with social reality. However, there
remains some awareness, at least sometimes, of our primary identity beneath the false self,
and so there is hope for lifting the repressionsset down most effectively in childhoodon
primitive mental processes.

The True Self

Through identification, which is a normal psychological basis of personality development, the
original identity of the person is stretched into something more and greater, on its path to the
true self. This process of identification becomes pathological only when the continuity of the
personality is not preserved, i.e. when there is a splitting in two of the mind, giving rise to a
new psychic structurea false self. This rupture of the mind is unfortunately precisely what
occurs through compulsory training and education of contemporary civilized human beings. In
contrast, the development of the natural and sane human mind does not entail any sharp
delimitations between its various stages and functions. The true self is a continuation and
culmination of the original self; it develops out of the original self, just as the original self
develops out of the tribal self. In sum, psychical reality consists of the tribal self, together with
the original self, and the dynamic interplay between them is responsible for the development
of the true self. The true self is something that unfolds/progresses. Traumatic civilization has
not eliminated the original self, but it has stopped the flow of tribal ideas into consciousness,
which arrests or distorts the higher/maturer development of the personality. In order to resume
deep thinking in the human mind, so that we can become our true self, it is necessary to push
back and ultimately dissolve civilization, internally and externally.

--------------------------------------
The Path to Insanity

Basic, vital needs or tribal needs are not being satisfied in civilization, and this produces
frustration, which in turn activates aggression. As civilization progresses toward global
interlock among new technological forms, we are removed farther and farther from the simple
and basic joys of lifesitting in a shaft of sunlight, conversing around a fire, food-sharing,
walking, the blue sky overheadand so frustration and aggression also progress. More and
more of a person's concern and compassion for others and the natural world are withdrawing,
and re-focusing on the self, in order to neutralize the growing frustration and anger within. This
is the psychological explanation for the culture of selfishness that is underway everywhere in
the modern worldthe first step on the road to insanity.

The second step, which is now on the horizon, is megalomania, a severe pathological state of
consciousness in which the steady withdrawal of love from others and nature gives rise to the
deluded mental condition of exalted self-importance. The megalomaniac feels more and more
powerful, euphoric, and in control of things (due to an abnormally inflated self-love), while in
reality s/he is becoming more and more isolated, impotent, and out of control (due to an
excessive loss of love for others and nature). This pathological condition of megalomania is
fueled by inner hatred, which is desperately seeking pacification by consuming more and more
of a person's available love, but it fails entirely to deal with the root-cause of our mental
illnessnamely, unmet primitive needs.

If people cannot access the tribal ideas that inform them of basic needs, then they cannot find
the proper targetnamely, civilizationfor their frustration and aggression. As a result, rage is
trapped in our minds and bodies and is destined to reach heights that are psychologically
unbearable for any individual, which leads to madness. Insanity, the third and final stage of
civilization, occurs when the original self becomes a tortured prisoner within the walls of its
own fears, frustrations, and hostility. It is now extremely difficult, if not impossible, to reach and
influence the original self with any rational message.


The Path to Sanity


Civilization has enslaved us in the chains of dependency, isolation, and artificiality. All that we
have suffered in civilization still exists in our mindsfor nothing vanishes from the human
mindand it is accumulating into rage. The mechanism that civilization employs in order to
prevent this rage from discharging itself against its sourcenamely, civilizationis the
establishment of a dictatorship in our heads, a false self, that re-directs this rage toward the
citizen in the form of self-blame. According to the false self, each individual is to blame for its
own misery. The false self gets the energy it needs to punish and enslave us from our own
blind frustration and aggression. Without conscious commitment to a tribal ideal, a firm hold
on basic truth, by which to evaluate, condemn, and go against civilization, a person is at the
mercy of its own mounting disappointment and aggression that the false self is designed to
turn inward.
The tribal ideal is a staff for strengthening the original self and fighting off the false self. By
upholding a tribal ideal, sometimes through the spoken word, sometimes through action, and
sometimes through silence, we build self-respect on a solid foundation; for at the core of our
being we are still fiercely independent, intelligent creatures, with strong affective ties to small
human groups and large natural/wild places.

The importance of this self-respect as a prime motivator of human nature can hardly be
overstated; it may enable an individual to defy civilization, even in the face of the hatred of the
whole modern world. When an individual acquires fundamental self-respect, then s/he will be
made a fool no longer, and all the blows of civilization are nothing but the battlescars of a
proud warrior. Civilization is powerless against it, because a person who has re-claimed
fundamental self-respect cares nothing about the laws and standards of civilization.

This self-respect leads to genuine self-love, the second and decisive step on the path to
sanity, for self-love (and happiness in large measure) consists in becoming one's own ideal
again, as in childhood. This self-love eventually overflows and becomes love for others and
for external nature. Concern for life on Earth is the result of a surplus of love, or as Nietzsche
put it, abundance in oneself the over-great fullness of life the feeling of plenitude and
increased energy.; In other words, caring for life on Earth flows from an unbroken and
expanding primary and healthy narcissism. Without this caring that flows from self-love,
science and ethics will preach in vain for the preservation of biological diversity, ecological
integrity, and real wilderness.

The megalomaniac or pathological narcissist has no love for others or for nature, because
s/he needs all available psychic energy, and even more, in order to stave off a false self that is
becoming more demanding and brutal. In megalomania, the backward flow of love, away from
others and nature and toward the self, is a defensive reaction to the underlying reality of
intensifying personal hurt and hatred: the original self is becoming weaker, and the false self
stronger, because the gross injury to the psyche of the human being, by the trauma of
civilization, festers.
http://www.primitivism.com/machine-heads.htm
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough homes ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game". Now it's "Crisis" time !Too many houses! Yes, we are insane!
paimei01
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