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when humanity became so misguided?

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Re: when humanity became so misguided?

Unread postby rangerone314 » Wed 29 Apr 2009, 08:49:10

As I understand it, going way back to early cities like Jericho there were raids by small groups of well armed men (like a few dozen) against small cities/towns, and you really got larger scale wars when you hard larger populations, ie agriculture took off.

It was in Mesopotamia someone (Sargon ?) came up with a small standing army, whereas before conquests were limited to how far you could conquer from the time the farmers finished planting their crops to when they had to go back to harvest them. That logistics & manpower constraint seems to have limited conquests fairly well.
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Re: when humanity became so misguided?

Unread postby vision-master » Wed 29 Apr 2009, 09:12:56

When 'we' ate from the tree of knowledge.
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Re: when humanity became so misguided?

Unread postby ki11ercane » Wed 29 Apr 2009, 09:36:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ki11ercane', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DoomWarrior', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bodigami', 'w')e should start a society from scratch... or something :)


We need to reduce global population significantly.


And I say this to anyone else who says the above:

"You first."



Why should he listen? I'm sure he'd rather take care of you


Which is why we have the world we have.
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Re: when humanity became so misguided?

Unread postby mos6507 » Wed 29 Apr 2009, 09:45:19

What I find frustrating about this debate is that the primitivist argument seems to want to let humans off the guilt hook by blaming everything on a meme (civilization). There is a general rejection of classical interpretations of original sin and the fall of man. The limitations of what humans tend to do when outside of their tribal comfort zones are kind of treated with a tsk tsk. There is never the notion that maybe we could have had it all had we somehow matured a little bit more as a species. Getting to the next level is not advocated. Rather we have to accept that biology is destiny and reject ways of life that we just can not make work. In other words, you can take the bushman out of the bush, but you can't take the bush out of the bushman. This is the anti-Star Trek argument in which humanity can never strive to be anything more than what we were a million years ago. I just find this very defeatist and very sad.
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Re: when humanity became so misguided?

Unread postby rangerone314 » Wed 29 Apr 2009, 10:20:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'W')hat I find frustrating about this debate is that the primitivist argument seems to want to let humans off the guilt hook by blaming everything on a meme (civilization). There is a general rejection of classical interpretations of original sin and the fall of man. The limitations of what humans tend to do when outside of their tribal comfort zones are kind of treated with a tsk tsk. There is never the notion that maybe we could have had it all had we somehow matured a little bit more as a species. Getting to the next level is not advocated. Rather we have to accept that biology is destiny and reject ways of life that we just can not make work. In other words, you can take the bushman out of the bush, but you can't take the bush out of the bushman. This is the anti-Star Trek argument in which humanity can never strive to be anything more than what we were a million years ago. I just find this very defeatist and very sad.


I'm not fully sure where I sit in this argument. I used to be more pro-Star Trek type of idealism. I think now that maybe we can strive to be more, we just may just not reach it due to natural laws or constraints. The Star Trek definition of evolving does rather Faustian to me (in way of Oswald Spengler), noble but possibly futile.

The truth is that the natural world seems to value competitiveness, and soon as a less competitive species or group encounters one that is more competitive, it is usually eradicated. Witness interactions between bluebirds and house sparrows (which are smaller but more aggressive).

Even with primitive societies you had headhunters & cannibals, so primitivism is not some wonderful utopia that anarchoprimitivists would like us to believe.

On the otherhand, "Civilization" as we call it spreads like cancer, and is about as hard to contain. (I guess that would make cities, tumors) I think we are doomed to an endless cycle of collapse of civilization and rebirth, collapse and rebirth.

I don't know if we'll ever "get it right".
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

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Re: when humanity became so misguided?

Unread postby Pretorian » Wed 29 Apr 2009, 10:32:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uNkNowN ElEmEnt', 'T')he error or the beginning of our downfall came with the ego and individualism.



Is it a suggestion that back in the ole days, everyone was striving to get warmest place in the cave, most tender mammoth pieces and sweetest pussy for the dude nearby? Ha.
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Re: when humanity became so misguided?

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 29 Apr 2009, 10:35:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'W')hat I find frustrating about this debate is that the primitivist argument



There you go with the "primitivist" stuff again. No matter how many times I tell you I'm not a primitivist and never have been, you keep using that word.

I've never proposed we "go back" to a way of life of a million years ago. Neither has Daniel Quinn, for that matter (you should know that, having read one of his books).

The concept of "original sin" seems defeatist to me, personally. Of course humans aren't perfect, no more perfect than any other animal. Why drag "original sin" into it?

I think Star Trek is keen.
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Re: when humanity became so misguided?

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 29 Apr 2009, 10:41:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')The truth is that the natural world seems to value competitiveness, and soon as a less competitive species or group encounters one that is more competitive, it is usually eradicated.



To me this has the problem of bringing very human ideas of "competitiveness" into observations of the world. We think of "competitive" as aggressive, pushy, forceful. A cursory glance at the world outside our culture shows multitudes of creatures finding niches which don't require any of these traits.

Image


It's important to avoid our cultural ideals of "survival of the fittest," in my opinion. The real survivors may prove to be the most quiet, the most patient, the least obvious.
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Re: when humanity became so misguided?

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 29 Apr 2009, 10:52:32

When humanity became so misguided? Misguided? This infers that there was or is something guiding humanity?

I have been mentioning in another thread the tendency of the vast majority of humans being followers. Wanting that big daddy in the sky to tell us what to do or how to behave. Even amongst us here empowered enlightened peak oilers we can go two pages into a thread and not recognize how deep this meme really is.
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Re: when humanity became so misguided?

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 29 Apr 2009, 10:56:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')I have been mentioning in another thread the tendency of the vast majority of humans being followers.



There's a meme for you. The hierarchy meme, not present in the bulk of human cultures.

Oh, yeah, that's my "ideology" speaking. :roll:


http://anthropik.com/2005/09/thesis-7-h ... band-life/
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Re: when humanity became so misguided?

Unread postby Ainan » Wed 29 Apr 2009, 12:53:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')I have been mentioning in another thread the tendency of the vast majority of humans being followers.



There's a meme for you. The hierarchy meme, not present in the bulk of human cultures.

Oh, yeah, that's my "ideology" speaking. :roll:


http://anthropik.com/2005/09/thesis-7-h ... band-life/


Hey Ludi, thankyou very much for the article link, I really enjoyed it! :mrgreen:
April 2008 Global Population: 6.8 billion
April 2010 Global Population: 7 billion
April 2012 Global Population: 7.2 billion
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Re: when humanity became so misguided?

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 29 Apr 2009, 12:59:37

You're welcome. :) I think Jason Godesky writes some good anthropology essays. Though I don't agree with some of his opinions - he's a primitivist, I'm not - I find his concepts well-researched and supported. I recommend his entire "Thirty Theses" series.
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Re: when humanity became so misguided?

Unread postby rangerone314 » Wed 29 Apr 2009, 13:19:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')The truth is that the natural world seems to value competitiveness, and soon as a less competitive species or group encounters one that is more competitive, it is usually eradicated.



To me this has the problem of bringing very human ideas of "competitiveness" into observations of the world. We think of "competitive" as aggressive, pushy, forceful. A cursory glance at the world outside our culture shows multitudes of creatures finding niches which don't require any of these traits.

Image


It's important to avoid our cultural ideals of "survival of the fittest," in my opinion. The real survivors may prove to be the most quiet, the most patient, the least obvious.


My ideal of survival of the fittest is hinged upon concept of adaptibility not fittest.

No doubt that cute silky anteater's habitat is probably shrinking due to humans.

I have had a few recent revelations when it comes to the introduction of "invasive" species:

1) is that humans are the ultimate invasive species.

2) such a judgement of "invasive" & their effects are due to an the extraordinarily limited horizon of human perspective... a lot of "native" species that are being displaced by invasive species long before humans were in North America were probably once "invasive", showed up on the scene and eventually established a balance. We look at events from the perspective of decades or centuries, when in truth nature operates on scale of millions of years.

3) Humans are just another animal species, subject to the same drives and evolutionary forces, and our "intelligence" & technology & culture are not significant enough differences to separate us from nature and the rest of the animals. Only human arrogance and narrowness of perspective lead people to think otherwise.

Given humanity's past failures, I have little confidence in the results of an effort by humanity to sculpt it's own evolution, and waiting for humanity to evolve via nature will take hundreds of thousands or millions of years (assuming the species or descendents exist) and all of our problems now won't even be distant memories.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

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Re: when humanity became so misguided?

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 29 Apr 2009, 13:27:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')2) such a judgement of "invasive" & their effects are due to an the extraordinarily limited horizon of human perspective... a lot of "native" species that are being displaced by invasive species long before humans were in North America were probably once "invasive", showed up on the scene and eventually established a balance.



Depends on what you call "balance." The large cats, including the sabertoothed cats, of which the jaguar may be a descendent, moved into the north (now north america) and wiped out the giant predatory birds ( through competition for a niche). If wiping out an entire group of other creatures is "balance" then ok, "invasive" species eventually strike a balance.

Human activity will eventually "establish a balance" which possibly may not include humans.
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Re: when humanity became so misguided?

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 29 Apr 2009, 14:11:52

rangerone314 wrote
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')I have had a few recent revelations when it comes to the introduction of "invasive" species:


Good revelations. For the current generation of humans experiencing overshoot this is important to understand if only to maintain a healthy perspective. On this positive note here are some comments to counter the dreary dooms day mood that so often permeates these discussions.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')
1) is that humans are the ultimate invasive species.


See my footnote. We are the Kudzu Ape, the only primate to act like an invasive species in the bredth and depth that we have penetrated so many geographic regions and such varied habitats in addition to being so disruptive to local native species everywhere we have gone. If you include the invasive species we have brought with us (cat, dog, crops, cows) and the land these slave species occupy than the dimension of our footprint is enormous

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')

such a judgement of "invasive" & their effects are due to an the extraordinarily limited horizon of human perspective... a lot of "native" species that are being displaced by invasive species long before humans were in North America were probably once "invasive", showed up on the scene and eventually established a balance. We look at events from the perspective of decades or centuries, when in truth nature operates on scale of millions of years.



I reccomend you read Basin and Range from John McPhee, a geologist who termed the phrase Deep Time. He introduced this concept of thinking in time dimensions way beyond our human life span. Many current native species were of course one time invasives. Think of the land bridge a couple million years ago when the isthmus of Panama connected North and South America. Placental mammals invaded South America wiping out 90% of marsupials and opossums moving north.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
') Humans are just another animal species, subject to the same drives and evolutionary forces, and our "intelligence" & technology & culture are not significant enough differences to separate us from nature and the rest of the animals. Only human arrogance and narrowness of perspective lead people to think otherwise.


From a deep time perspective you can say that humans are the first clumsy attempt of a sentient species on our planet trying to confront overshoot after having dominated our environment. If we fail we wont be the last unless intelligence and the ability to develop technology and culture was really a "one time event" of life on our planet. Looking at cetaceans, dogs, some parrots, even some invertebrates like the octopus and given enough deep time it is most likely sentient species will one day perhaps look upon the ruins our own species and take lessons from their own attempts to find a sustainable balance.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Given humanity's past failures, I have little confidence in the results of an effort by humanity to sculpt it's own evolution, and waiting for humanity to evolve via nature will take hundreds of thousands or millions of years (assuming the species or descendents exist) and all of our problems now won't even be distant memories


Maybe rethink this statement. Humanity's past failures? This is wrong. Humans are one of the most successful species on the planet and have demonstrated this since our species first came down out of the trees and developed a cerebral cortex and apposing thumb. When you look at Kudzu Ape through the prism of our success then you can ask yourself what are the odds that we will pass through the current overshoot and ecological distresses and come out on the otherside with a transformed culture evolved to where we have corrective social tabus and moral and ethics that will embed sustainability? Looking at the adaptability of the past million years of our species on the planet I think the odds are very good.

The problem we have here is a failure to think in deep time. For all of us currently living in a generation of overshoot our situation frankly sucks and the immediate short term future looks dismall, bleak and hopeless. But what doesn't kill you will make you stronger and I am most confident that the horrific overshoot events of the 21st century will hone our species with adaptive behaviours that will transform us.

We just have to continue to stoke the fires of our unsustainability awhile longer until the consequences start doing their work.

It's all about that deeper time perspective beyond the egotism of ones own lifetime.

The odds are hugely in favour of humans enduring for indeed, we are resilient. We are afterall, the Kudzu Ape.

A look at the fossil record does confirm that all species do go extinct. So human resilience indeed does have its limits:)
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Re: when humanity became so misguided?

Unread postby bodigami » Wed 29 Apr 2009, 14:46:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')The truth is that the natural world seems to value competitiveness, and soon as a less competitive species or group encounters one that is more competitive, it is usually eradicated.


To me this has the problem of bringing very human ideas of "competitiveness" into observations of the world. We think of "competitive" as aggressive, pushy, forceful. A cursory glance at the world outside our culture shows multitudes of creatures finding niches which don't require any of these traits.

Image

It's important to avoid our cultural ideals of "survival of the fittest," in my opinion. The real survivors may prove to be the most quiet, the most patient, the least obvious.


:lol: you love that animal don't you? plantae in general fits the patient and quite competitive niche :)
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Re: when humanity became so misguided?

Unread postby bodigami » Wed 29 Apr 2009, 14:47:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'W')hen humanity became so misguided? Misguided? This infers that there was or is something guiding humanity?

I have been mentioning in another thread the tendency of the vast majority of humans being followers. Wanting that big daddy in the sky to tell us what to do or how to behave. Even amongst us here empowered enlightened peak oilers we can go two pages into a thread and not recognize how deep this meme really is.


sorry, i was refering to our direction as species... guiding ourselves. i didn't implied some external and imaginary entity that guides us.
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Re: when humanity became so misguided?

Unread postby bodigami » Wed 29 Apr 2009, 15:00:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '(')...)
A look at the fossil record does confirm that all species do go extinct. So human resilience indeed does have its limits:)


all species either go extinct or evolve.

deep time thinking isn't that difficult to use... maybe even timeless thinking.
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Re: when humanity became so misguided?

Unread postby vision-master » Wed 29 Apr 2009, 15:32:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GASMON', 'W')hen did humanity became so misguided?

Friday August 3rd 1492.

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Gasmon


:)
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