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THE Waterboarding Thread (merged)

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Schmuto » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 11:56:36

Well, if it's not obvious to anyone -

This is torture in its simplest form - the infliction of pain/discomfort/fear for no reason other than to inflict the pain, the discomfort, or the fear.

Haven't seen a blip of it on the national media.

Mirrors are so unnecessary to true sociopathic narcissists.
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Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 12:09:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', 'W')ell, if it's not obvious to anyone -

This is torture in its simplest form - the infliction of pain/discomfort/fear for no reason other than to inflict the pain, the discomfort, or the fear.


Sure sounds that way but we've only seen four documents that Obama cherry picked from thousands and thousands relating to this program. A former CIA director blasted Obama and said the interrogations did work and worked very well----he said they produced about half the total intelligence on Al Qaida, and stopped attacks and saved US lives.

Dick Cheney, of all people, requested yesterday that Obama release more key documents relating to the torture program, including those that show the "results." Hopefully Obama will take Cheney's advice to be more transparent and will release the rest of the documents so we'll have all the facts rather then just claims from Obama that it didn't work and claims from CIA insiders that it worked well and stopped attacks and saved lives. :badgrin:
Never underestimate the ability of Joe Biden to f#@% things up---Barack Obama
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Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 15:37:14

CIA reconfirms 2005 statement that waterboarding produced intel that thwarted terror attack on LA

waterboarding for LA

Of coure, the CIA could just be trying to do a CYA now that Obama has released four of their secret files.
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Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Munqi » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 16:05:07

I think that law professor said it best.

Sometimes torture is necessary, and when it is someone has to be accountable.

Ironically, it is those who wish to ban torture that are responsible for this. If people realised that torture is absolutely necessary sometimes then it wouldnt have to be secret - which means that it could be controlled. If its illegal anyway, then there is no reason to have anyone control it --> innocent people get tortured.
Last edited by Munqi on Tue 21 Apr 2009, 17:03:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 16:28:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Munqi', 'I') think that law professor said it best.

Sometimes torture is necessary, and when it is someone has to accountable.
.


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Thats the underlying theme of this years "24".
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Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Schmuto » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 17:10:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Munqi', 'I') think that law professor said it best.

Sometimes torture is necessary,


Hopefully, some day, you'll have this principle applied to you.


Regarding the CIA's contentions - seriously, who gives a flying f-- what the CIA says?

Have they ever acknowledged wrong? Ever?

Show me the "results" from the 183 water boardings, and show me how they "saved lives".

What a load of donkey-sh-t to feed to the Donkey Sh-t Eating American public.

The fact is, the only lives that have been "lost" to "terrorism" are those on 9/11, and that's only if you eat that Donkey Sh-t too.
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Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 17:17:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', '
')
Show me the "results" from the 183 water boardings, and show me how they "saved lives".



Exactly right.

Obama selectively released just four memos out of thousands about this program. Its a little too late to try to be cute about this issue----its time for Obama to be more transparent and release all the key documents and give the public the whole story.
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Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Munqi » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 18:20:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Munqi', 'I') think that law professor said it best.

Sometimes torture is necessary,


Hopefully, some day, you'll have this principle applied to you.

Regarding the CIA's contentions - seriously, who gives a flying f-- what the CIA says?

Have they ever acknowledged wrong? Ever?

Show me the "results" from the 183 water boardings, and show me how they "saved lives".


You catch a terrorist who has hidden a bomb somewhere that will kill 100 people when it goes off. The only way to get to that bomb is to torture him.

What do you do?

Do you kindly tell him that you're above such barbaric things and just watch those 100 people die?
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Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Schmuto » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 19:03:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Munqi', 'Y')ou catch a terrorist who has hidden a bomb somewhere that will kill 100 people when it goes off. The only way to get to that bomb is to torture him.
What do you do?


1st things first - I am a man of principle. I'm sure you have little or no experience with a man like me. If you did, you wouldn't waste your time with hypotheticals.

Here's the principle: torturing a human being is evil.

So if your hypothetical was one quadrillion babies die if I don't torture . . . whoever . . . then I suggest you get the tiny caskets ready.

That's 1st.

2nd, perhaps you're young, so you can be forgiven for your myopia.

What you don't understand Munqi, is that you are the terrorist.

You don't understand that yet, but you will.

You're already on a government list of radicals.

You personally are responsible for inciting terror with your incessant references to the crack-pot "theory" known as "peak oil." With your words, you are inciting domestic panic, which makes you a domestic terrorist.

Under Bush the 2nd's laws, which Bush the 3rd has continued, you may already have been phone tapped, email tapped, and so on, which will make it very simple for them to get the court order to arrest you at some point for your terrorism.

And when they do arrest you Munqi, they will be sure that you are another Tim McVeigh, concealing a plot to bomb something, somewhere, because you are clearly an anti-government radical.

And when they take you in the back room Munqi, I want you to think of me, because, while you will shortly be pulling a John McCain, who is only against torture because he was, himself, tortured, I will be thinking of you, and I will be restating my principal for you:

Torture is evil, and no good man would do it for any reason.

Your pathetic hypothetical is the same as asking . . .

. . . would you torture an innocent baby to save 1 million people?

Of course not.

I'm Gideon.
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Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 19:27:39

Why does Obama think the lawyers who offered a legal opinion that waterboarding is not torture could be prosecuted but not the government officials in the CIA who ordered torture, the Bush administration officials who approved torture, the members of the Senate and House intelligence committees who have oversight over the CIA etc. and who also approved torture, and the actual torturers themselves.

Once Obama released the four "torture" memos, he opened Pandora's box on this issue.

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Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 19:38:11

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Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Fishman » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 19:55:15

Shmu
The country will regard saving LA as a necessity, sorry. Little different from other administrations during war. This talk of an investigation is clearly all fluff and bluff, it assumes the American population has NO short term memory
"The Senate Intelligence Committee, .., is chaired by Democratic Senator Jay Rockefeller, who has been complicit in the CIA torture program since it was launched. Rockefeller was one of six legislators who were briefed on the torture program in 2002-2003, when waterboarding was being practiced. Democrat Nancy Pelosi, the current House speaker, was also included in the briefing."

Are we assuming the Democratic Senate will investigate and prosecute the entire Sentate Intelligence Committee?
I can hear the CIA agent saying "we told Pelosi about it and she said "go for it"" on national TV. ROTF LMAO
Obama, the FUBAR presidency gets scraped off the boot
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Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Munqi » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 20:26:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Munqi', 'Y')ou catch a terrorist who has hidden a bomb somewhere that will kill 100 people when it goes off. The only way to get to that bomb is to torture him.
What do you do?


1st things first - I am a man of principle. I'm sure you have little or no experience with a man like me. If you did, you wouldn't waste your time with hypotheticals.

Here's the principle: torturing a human being is evil.


So you would not torture someone who is about to kill quadrillion babies to save those quadrillion babies because its your principle? You have some shitty principles there my friend..... thats all i can say.

And see, thats the whole reason why i want people to be open about it. If my government ever chooses to torture me i want there to be transparency. I want everyone to know that im being tortured. I want the person who makes that decision to be someone who is accountable for his mistakes. If torture is not allowed, then i wont get those things but i'll still be tortured if there is a need for it.

You cant defend your opinion because its wrong.
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Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Schmuto » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 21:15:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Munqi', 'S')o you would not torture someone who is about to kill quadrillion babies to save those quadrillion babies because its your principle? You have some shitty principles there my friend...

Do no evil. Pretty simple.
If you ask me to do evil for doing good, you have done nothing but asked me to do evil.

You are a terrorist. I expect nothing less from you.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Munqi', 'A')nd see, thats the whole reason why i want people to be open about it. If my government ever chooses to torture me i want there to be transparency. I want everyone to know that im being tortured. I want the person who makes that decision to be someone who is accountable for his mistakes. If torture is not allowed, then i wont get those things but i'll still be tortured if there is a need for it. You cant defend your opinion because its wrong.


You believe that a moral principle is wrong?

Interesting.

According to your theory of living, if I was able to kill 10 babies to save 11, I should.

Isn't that correct?
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Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby dinopello » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 22:50:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Munqi', 'Y')ou catch a terrorist who has hidden a bomb somewhere that will kill 100 people when it goes off. The only way to get to that bomb is to torture him.

What do you do?

Do you kindly tell him that you're above such barbaric things and just watch those 100 people die?


What you do, is up to you. If you believe you can save the lives of a 100 people by torturing some guy, his wife his kids, whatever, then you could do that. You must then be prepared to pay the price. Don't ask the state to sanction the illegal act. If it's worth it enough do it, and take yer chances with a jury. Like a vigalante act. Sometimes it's justified, but that doesn't mean it should be legal.
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Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 23:32:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Munqi', 'Y')ou catch a terrorist who has hidden a bomb somewhere that will kill 100 people when it goes off. The only way to get to that bomb is to torture him.

What do you do?

Do you kindly tell him that you're above such barbaric things and just watch those 100 people die?


What you do, is up to you. If you believe you can save the lives of a 100 people by torturing some guy.... then you could do that.


Perhaps you could interrogate the terrorist and get him to tell you by applying an enhanced interrogation technique that would scare him or temporarily stress him but wouldn't be torture. Something like putting him in a box with a caterpillar or making him sit in an uncomfortable position or playing rap music when he is trying to sleep.

Wouldn't that be better then torturing him?
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Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Munqi » Wed 22 Apr 2009, 08:06:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', '.').


Do no evil... Sounds good to me. In my opinion it would be evil not to torture someone who is about to kill quadrillion babies if that saved those babies.


And yes, you're absolutely right. I would kill 10 babies to save 11. Yes it would terrible, but it would be also terribly selfish not to do that to save that 1 child.
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Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Munqi » Wed 22 Apr 2009, 08:11:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', 'S')ometimes it's justified, but that doesn't mean it should be legal.


Ofcourse it does?

If something is absolutely necessary then it must be legal because otherwise you will force someone to break the law for doing the right thing. Put yourself in the shoes of a CIA agent in the situation i described earlier. Would you be able to accept that kind of hypocracy then?

You're being amazingly hypocritical.
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Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby mattduke » Wed 22 Apr 2009, 08:11:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Munqi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', '.').


Do no evil... Sounds good to me. In my opinion it would be evil not to torture someone who is about to kill quadrillion babies if that saved those babies.


And yes, you're absolutely right. I would kill 10 babies to save 11. Yes it would terrible, but it would be also terribly selfish not to do that to save that 1 child.

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I would stack 10 Iraqis to save one Jessica.
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Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby dinopello » Wed 22 Apr 2009, 08:13:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Munqi', 'Y')ou catch a terrorist who has hidden a bomb somewhere that will kill 100 people when it goes off. The only way to get to that bomb is to torture him.

What do you do?

Do you kindly tell him that you're above such barbaric things and just watch those 100 people die?


What you do, is up to you. If you believe you can save the lives of a 100 people by torturing some guy.... then you could do that.


Perhaps you could interrogate the terrorist and get him to tell you by applying an enhanced interrogation technique that would scare him or temporarily stress him but wouldn't be torture. Something like putting him in a box with a caterpillar or making him sit in an uncomfortable position or playing rap music when he is trying to sleep.

Wouldn't that be better then torturing him?


Better how ? More effective at getting the information ? If torturing someone by making them listen to rap music, rush limbaugh or whatever got you the location of the nuclear device there would be no reason to move beyond that. Do you agree ?
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