[ReverseEngineer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'T')here was a lot of discussion on this convolutedly on the racism thread, you'll need to dig back a few hundred posts; or RE might like to elaborate again/ update?

[SeaGypsy]

I am living once again in Aboriginal Australia which had these rites until very recently, in some places versions prevail still.
Weird that the same people who practised this most recently are now facing the rites of- Junk food diet, alcohol, petrol sniffing, ultra violent family abuse, incarceration, high speed intoxicated driving, chronic unemployment.
It's a bloody miserable situation for many of them and it's not hard to think they were better off with a 'Test by Nature'.

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'T')here was a lot of discussion on this convolutedly on the racism thread, you'll need to dig back a few hundred posts; or RE might like to elaborate again/ update?

[Byron100]

Before you elaborate on this, I'd like to ask a few questions about this very intriguing idea.

Firstly, would the kids of that age all be sent out together as a group, on a particular day of the year? Would only the males be sent out, or would both sexes be subject to this? If both girls and boys are to be "tested", would any attempt be made to keep the sexes apart? (As to avoid any "premature" reproduction...LOL.)

Alas, this method is a very crude method of population control, IMO, as there's still no check on how many kids each family has, and there's no way of knowing how the population demographics would play out over time. Too few children being born + too few coming back from the year-long walkabout = extinction of the community over time. Or, parents compensating for the inevitable culling of their offspring by having way too many kids, thereby negating the culling effect of the survival test.

I do have to admit this might be a workable idea, at least in theory. After the great die-off, of course. The key is to never, ever allow any particular person to control the fates of others....that trait will be the most difficult of all to overcome. Sure do love the idea of us humans controlling our own evolution in a collective manner, though.

[SeaGypsy]

In the Aussie version there are group and individual tests.
The individual one is the biggie, no marriage unless pass.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'I')n the Aussie version there are group and individual tests.
The individual one is the biggie, no marriage unless pass.

[ReverseEngineer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', 'B')efore you elaborate on this, I'd like to ask a few questions about this very intriguing idea.

Firstly, would the kids of that age all be sent out together as a group, on a particular day of the year? Would only the males be sent out, or would both sexes be subject to this? If both girls and boys are to be "tested", would any attempt be made to keep the sexes apart? (As to avoid any "premature" reproduction...LOL.)

Alas, this method is a very crude method of population control, IMO, as there's still no check on how many kids each family has, and there's no way of knowing how the population demographics would play out over time. Too few children being born + too few coming back from the year-long walkabout = extinction of the community over time. Or, parents compensating for the inevitable culling of their offspring by having way too many kids, thereby negating the culling effect of the survival test.

[Plantagenet]

The Spartans also had a rite of passage for the youth, but they did it with a kind of internal exile, where the youth spent a year living rough in the countryside around Sparta and stealing all their food from the Helots, the slave population that farmed Sparta's land.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'T')he Spartans also had a rite of passage for the youth, but they did it with a kind of internal exile, where the youth spent a year living rough in the countryside around Sparta and stealing all their food from the Helots, the slave population that farmed Sparta's land.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'T')he Spartans also had a rite of passage for the youth, but they did it with a kind of internal exile, where the youth spent a year living rough in the countryside around Sparta and stealing all their food from the Helots, the slave population that farmed Sparta's land.

[ReverseEngineer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')They also tossed infants deemed to be 'puny or deformed' into a chasm.

[paimei01]

Working children in Bangladesh:
http://www.zoriah.net/blog/2009/04/gues ... labor.html


A comment at the end of the blog:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t's important to ask, "what is the next best alternative for these children?". People in America love to say "they SHOULD be in school, or they SHOULD be playing with their friends". But the harsh reality is that if many of these kids weren't working in factories, they would be digging through trash heaps for scrap metal (many do) and working as prostitutes. If not that, then starvation.

At least this way, they are learning a skill. If Americans weren't so protectionist with their wealth and industry, more factories would move abroad and the competition for workers would raise wages in these third world countries.

[paimei01]

Easy for me to say "choose this system is better". I can imagine myself convincing all the people around me , then what ? The greater system does not allow for a no money system inside. Need to be lots of people on a big territory with all the needed resources for the new system to work, and really use all the inventions. Else we would be just a village of hippies - if we have the land, working with tools from the 19 century just to survive, and always at war with the tax collectors and other people like that, can;t even reach the idea of "less work". From where will we get clothes ? Yes it is possible to make all, but that is lots of work, even more work than today, even for children, and exactly that I want to change. Using all the modern machines we could provide the basics to all, for a very long time before oil runs out.
So to avoid the life of the 19 century peasant we must become capitalist again, sell products, and so on. A nice little cooperative enterprise. Then we soon become the current system again.

But I think people will try the hippie village just out of necessity soon.

[Quinny]

This thread has got me thinking about the worth of life improving/labour saving inventions. Could there be some kind of measure sort of similar to EROEI to look at the labour saving created by various tools/devices and it's effect on the quality of life. Probably not, too subjective, but could be interesting.

There are some devices that IMO are a waste of space and energy - dishwashers for one, but extending it to industrial agriculture, mining equipment etc could give interesting results.

I know there are some that say the market decides this, but we are moving into a different era, maybe we need different measures.

[paimei01]

Maybe I can't imagine very well, but if all the village cooperates it would be a more easy life than a lonely peasant in medieval Europe. Even with no modern tools. But need lots of things, for example wool for clothes. So need a big territory from where people have all they need or they will have to trade for wool = current system.

If that "bigger territory" is the entire country (my country Romania or USA, not some desert country where people are dependent on outside imports even for food), then I am sure that using modern machines - food, clothes can be provided for all working in turns for 8 years max each - that includes making the machines. Meaning you work for 8 years max, then you have free food and clothes for the rest of your life. Now just learn how to make wine and party forever Shelter - will have all the time in the world to build some house.And you will be helped by neighbors, you help them too, there is no more that feeling of "he is a possible competitor" when looking at another person. There will be competitions between regions or cities , people bored of too much sitting around will say "let's build that or that, show the people over the hill what we can do !". But people will not just sit or party, each would follow his hobby, do what he likes, invent new stuff, and so on. All the scientists and inventors, look at Einstein, did they "work" or just did what they liked ? People working today do not want to invent new ways for more efficient work. They could become useless. So if a worker somewhere in a specific situation knows that he could become useless, he will not talk about improvements for that specific situation. The system makes us do this, and some still say "more work, more work !". More useless work they mean.

And people will be free to travel, food will be everywhere just not cooked. There could be some trading if you want some "services" when you travel. But with no money. Money must be banned , Stalin style. They lead to people taking from nature more than they need, then they lead to what we have now again. People are not "evil" by nature. Look at some Buddhist monastery, not all there are "enlightened", but they behave good among themselves because their organization is good. Same as my system they have free food. People will adapt and defend the new system even more than the current one.
Is this all just my imagination ?


http://www.ascentofhumanity.com/chapter1-5.php
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ther studies worldwide, as well as common sense, suggest that the !Kung were not exceptional. In more lush areas life was probably even easier. Moreover, much of the "work" spent on these twenty hours of subsistence activities was by no means strenuous or burdensome. Most of the men's subsistence hours were spent hunting, something we do for recreation today, while gathering work was occasion for banter and frequent breaks.
Primitive small-scale agriculturalists enjoyed a similar unhurried pace of life. Consider Helena Norberg-Hodge's description of pre-modern Ladakh, a region in the Indian portion of the Tibetan Plateau.iii Despite a growing season only four months long, Ladakh enjoyed regular food surpluses, long and frequent festivals and celebrations, and ample leisure time (especially in winter when there was little field work to do). This, despite the harsh climate and the (proportionately) enormous population of non-working Buddhist monks in that country's numerous monasteries! More powerfully than any statistic, Norberg-Hodge's video documentary Ancient Futures conveys a sense of the leisurely pace of life there: villagers chat or sing as they work, taking plenty of long breaks even at the busiest time of the year. As the narrator says, "work and leisure are one."

[ReverseEngineer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'T')his thread has got me thinking about the worth of life improving/labour saving inventions. Could there be some kind of measure sort of similar to EROEI to look at the labour saving created by various tools/devices and it's effect on the quality of life. Probably not, too subjective, but could be interesting.

There are some devices that IMO are a waste of space and energy - dishwashers for one, but extending it to industrial agriculture, mining equipment etc could give interesting results.

I know there are some that say the market decides this, but we are moving into a different era, maybe we need different measures.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('paimei01', 'L')ook at some Buddhist monastery, not all there are "enlightened", but they behave good among themselves because their organization is good. Same as my system they have free food.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('paimei01', '
')So to avoid the life of the 19 century peasant we must become capitalist again, sell products, and so on. A nice little cooperative enterprise. Then we soon become the current system again.

But I think people will try the hippie village just out of necessity soon.

[SeaGypsy]

With consideration that Palmy is Romanian, with English as a second or 3rd language, he is a 'very bright cookie' as my grannie would have said.
The most travelled man I ever met told me Romania is the best country in the world for a person who is willing to share.

[paimei01]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'W')ith consideration that Palmy is Romanian, with English as a second or 3rd language, he is a 'very bright cookie' as my grannie would have said.
The most travelled man I ever met told me Romania is the best country in the world for a person who is willing to share.