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THE Wall Street Thread (merged)

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Wall Street Fraud Schemes Lead to 4 Arrests

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Thu 26 Feb 2009, 00:13:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ache', 'h')ttp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29383778/ $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')our Wall Street fund managers were arrested by the FBI Wednesday for allegedly running three separate fraud schemes.

Why don't we just build a Wall around Wall Street and turn it into a Prison? The whole ballgame is Fraud. I'm getting tired of Pgmen getting arrested. Can we have some TRIALS here? Can we drop these guys into Max Security prisons with some Murderers and Rapists please?
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Re: Wall Street Fraud Schemes Lead to 4 Arrests

Unread postby nobodypanic » Fri 27 Feb 2009, 23:35:51

but but... if only we had a free-market.

this is all the fault of over-regulation, obama, and the democrats. :lol:
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Re: Wall Street Fraud Schemes Lead to 4 Arrests

Unread postby truecougarblue » Sat 28 Feb 2009, 00:54:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '
')I'm getting tired of Pigmen getting arrested. Can we have some TRIALS here? Can we drop these guys into Max Security prisons with some Murderers and Rapists please?
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Don't worry, in the state of emergency soon to come when habeas corpus is suspended, there will be swift and terrible justice.

...for the guilty and the innocent.
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Re: RS: Wall Street using bailout to stage a revolution (!!)

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Tue 24 Mar 2009, 04:11:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'I')f energy can simply be seen as the key to confidence in future markets; Tanada and OilFinder seem to have some very strong possible contingency plans.

There are many environmental restrains on growth other than energy.
Perpetual economic growth requires population growth, that in turn requires food production growth and growth of ability to contain contagious disease in increasingly dense population centers and growth of ability to expand waste sinks.
So Mother Nature will get an upper hand at some point.
Take my word for it.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hilst I think the chances of a full blown collapse based on the indicators RE has pointed to are very high; I don't believe this is a forgone conclusion.

I believe, it is.
My interest is about timing of progress of collapse and about possible ways to sort out paperwork related to collapse, eg will we end up in debt slavery or maybe in Greater Somalia scenarios.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f a far greater degree of science was allowed to prevail in decision making about the future...

...then idiotic model of perpetual economic growth would not be embraced at the first place.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')The various God's will instead drag us to war. I hope and pray not.

I don't care.
When no alternative solutions remain, war becomes to be the last proposal.
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Re: RS: Wall Street using bailout to stage a revolution (!!)

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Tue 24 Mar 2009, 04:26:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'A')s to the Justice required here for punishing the currently indebted, we don't totally agree there, I'm all for Forgiveness of a certain amount of debt in the interest of not putting every head on the chopping block or everyone into slavery, or at least the overwhelming portion of people anyhow.

You know from our previous discussions, that I am for some forgiveness too, just to prevent some silly penny counting and making hell of peoples life for relatively small debts.
I would go after more for those who made significant debts, so a big chunk of middle class together with some described as "rich" would suffer.
I think, our main difference is that you are abhorred to see a penalty taking a form of slavery and I would allow it for heavy debtors who accumulated debt in reckless fashion.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ') Just as I put some limits on total Wealth in determining who sees the Death Penalty and who just sees some Penance scrubbing toilets, so also would I put some limits on the total debt any individual accumulated. One of the most interesting paradoxes is that it the most "Wealthy" people who actually have the most Debt. Its almost one in the same thing.

It seems that after months of discussion our positions becoming to be reconcilable to some degree.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')After the fair trial, if you are deemed Guilty of Crimes Against Humanity of sufficient gravity, I have no problem whatsoever with Hanging, a Firing Squad, Lethal Injection, the Guillotine or being Burned at the Stake. That's just a choice of the means of carrying out the Justice.

There is a good chance that some of these will actually proceed.
That will be once PTB structures need reshaping because damage to existing arrangement is beyond repair.
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Wall Street Pursues Profit in Bundles of Life Insurance

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 06 Sep 2009, 13:18:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')fter the mortgage business imploded last year, Wall Street investment banks began searching for another big idea to make money. They think they may have found one.

The bankers plan to buy “life settlements,” life insurance policies that ill and elderly people sell for cash — $400,000 for a $1 million policy, say, depending on the life expectancy of the insured person. Then they plan to “securitize” these policies, in Wall Street jargon, by packaging hundreds or thousands together into bonds. They will then resell those bonds to investors, like big pension funds, who will receive the payouts when people with the insurance die.

The earlier the policyholder dies, the bigger the return — though if people live longer than expected, investors could get poor returns or even lose money.

Either way, Wall Street would profit by pocketing sizable fees for creating the bonds, reselling them and subsequently trading them.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/06/business/06insurance.html?hp


Wow.. after taking everything you got and everything your children will ever have, Wall Street wants to be your life insurance beneficiary too.
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Re: Wall Street Pursues Profit in Bundles of Life Insurance

Unread postby Quinny » Sun 06 Sep 2009, 13:53:27

Looks like someone's gonna profit from the die-off? :twisted:
Live, Love, Learn, Leave Legacy.....oh and have a Laugh while you're doing it!
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Re: Wall Street Pursues Profit in Bundles of Life Insurance

Unread postby cipi604 » Sun 06 Sep 2009, 17:05:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'W')ow.. after taking everything you got and everything your children will ever have, Wall Street wants to be your life insurance beneficiary too.

+1
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Re: Wall Street Pursues Profit in Bundles of Life Insurance

Unread postby timmac » Sun 06 Sep 2009, 18:09:31

But what if this H1N1 virus was a serious one and many elderly died, from my understanding life insurance don't pay on pandemic virus deaths and that would leave the bond holders in the same boat as the ones with housing loan bonds ???
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Re: Wall Street Pursues Profit in Bundles of Life Insurance

Unread postby Cloud9 » Sun 06 Sep 2009, 19:52:00

There was a big push for life insurance when the 1918 flu hit. The companies lived to regret it.
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Re: Wall Street Pursues Profit in Bundles of Life Insurance

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 06 Sep 2009, 20:05:01

In Australia advertising for all kinds of insurance is going exponential.
Funeral insurance is a biggie.
Pay per mile car insurance.
Life and income.
10 times the adverts for these 'products' as before the crash.
I'm sure there is bundling going on.
This could be worse than the mortgage fiasco in the long run.
I agree with 6strings this is the latest scheme by the same scammers who brought us bundled debt.
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Re: Wall Street Pursues Profit in Bundles of Life Insurance

Unread postby timmac » Sun 06 Sep 2009, 20:09:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'T')here was a big push for life insurance when the 1918 flu hit. The companies lived to regret it.



That's why when you look at the fine print on the back pages of the life insurance policy today, they exclude suicide and pandemic virus as such as ones from 1918, you only can die natural or by accident, even some have excluded war on our soil and terrorist attacks as well, the exclusions have grown over the past years, buying bonds to make a profit over life insurance deaths are going to get more risky as terrorist, H1N1, Avian Flu and other exclusions grows..

They may start to add some countries that you visit as a exclusion.. such as Mexico..
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Local governments fork over billions in fees to Wall Street

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 04 Dec 2009, 07:19:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')etroit Mayor Dave Bing is struggling to save his city from fiscal calamity. Unemployment is at a record 28 percent and rising, while home prices have plunged 39 percent since 2007. The 66-year-old Bing, a former NBA all-star with the Detroit Pistons who took office 10 months ago, faces a $300 million budget deficit — and few ways to make up the difference.

Against that bleak backdrop, Wall Street is squeezing one of America's weakest cities for every penny it can. A few years ago, Detroit struck a derivatives deal with UBS and other banks that allowed it to save more than $2 million a year in interest on $800 million worth of bonds. But the fine print carried a potentially devastating condition. If the city's credit rating dropped, the banks could opt out of the deal and demand a sizable breakup fee. That's precisely what happened in January: After years of fiscal trouble, Detroit saw its credit rating slashed to junk. Suddenly the sputtering Motor City was on the hook for a $400 million tab.

During late-night strategy sessions, Joseph L. Harris, Detroit's then-chief financial officer, scoured the budget for spare dollars, going so far as to cut expenditures on water and electricity. "I figured the [utility] wouldn't turn out our lights," says Harris. But there wasn't enough cash, and in June the city set up a payment plan with the banks.

Now Detroit must use the revenues from its three casinos — MGM Grand Detroit, Greektown Casino, and MotorCity Casino — to cover a $4.2 million monthly payment to the banks before a single cent can go to schools, transportation, and other critical services. "The economic crisis has forced us to move quickly and redefine what services a city can and should provide," says Bing. "While we face a tough road ahead, I believe we're on the right path." UBS declined to comment.

Detroit isn't suffering alone. Across the nation, local governments and related public entities, already reeling from the recession, face another fiscal crisis: billions of dollars in fees owed to UBS, Goldman Sachs and other financial giants on investment deals gone wrong.

The seeds of this looming disaster were sown during the credit boom, when Wall Street targeted cities big and small with risky financial products that promised to save them money or boost returns.

Investment bankers sold exotic derivatives designed to help municipalities cut borrowing costs. Banks and insurance companies constructed complicated tax deals that allowed public utilities, transit authorities, and other nonprofit organizations to extract cash immediately from their long-term assets. Private equity firms, pointing to stellar historical gains, persuaded big public pension funds to plow billions of dollars into high-cost investments at the peak of the market.

Many of the transactions shared a striking similarity: provisions that protected the banks from big losses and left the customers on the hook for huge payouts.

Now, as many of those deals sour, Wall Street is ramping up its efforts to collect from Main Street.


"The banks stuffed customers with [questionable investments] and then extorted money from the customers to get rid of them," says Christopher Whalen, managing director at research firm Institutional Risk Analytics.

The New Jersey Transportation Trust Fund Authority, for instance, must pay nearly $1 million a month at least until December 2011 to Goldman Sachs on derivatives deals tied to municipal debt—even though the state retired the debt last year.

The Chicago Transit Authority, having entered into complex arrangements to lease its equipment to outside investors and then lease it back, could face termination fees of $30 million. The investors could collect penalties because American International Group, which backed the arrangement, has seen its credit rating tumble. "These [sorts of deals] are potentially huge liabilities," says Stanford Law School's Joseph Bankman. "Investors aren't going to be settling for chump change." Goldman Sachs declined to comment.

Of course, many of the municipal-finance investments blowing up now were fairly standard contracts that clearly spelled out the pitfalls. "Municipalities knew the risks," says James S. Normile, a New York partner at law firm Winston Strawn. "They just didn't think they were going to happen."

But some public entities, lacking the financial expertise, proved to be willing buyers for Wall Street's more dubious ideas.

Consider the plight of Hoosier Energy Rural Electric Cooperative. In 2002 a group of attorneys and investment bankers presented the tiny nonprofit utility, indirectly owned by its 800,000 mostly rural customers, with a quick way to earn some money. Hoosier Energy leased a power plant near the Wabash River in Sullivan County, Ind., to John Hancock Financial Services. Hancock then turned around and leased it back. As a result, the utility netted $20 million while Hancock planned to reap tax benefits on the facility. The bankers and lawyers, meanwhile, made $12 million.

The transaction was part of a broader trend: Over the past decade dozens of utilities, transportation agencies, and other public nonprofit entities struck so-called leaseback deals to collect cash on their assets.

Around the same time the Hoosier agreement was finalized, the IRS began cracking down on leaseback deals. The federal agency in a memorandum called them a "sham" that lacked any business purpose beyond tax evasion and amounted to a circular exchange of assets and cash.

Legally speaking, a transaction that merely reaps tax rewards and has no other economic purpose is often considered an abusive tax shelter. Although the IRS hasn't ruled on Hancock's tax breaks, U.S. District Court Judge David F. Hamilton concluded in an opinion last fall that they looked "abusive." Hancock says it believes it's entitled to the tax benefits.

Now Hancock is exploiting a technicality in the 3,000-page pact with Hoosier that could allow the financial firm to wiggle out of the contract and collect a fat fee. Even though Hoosier has continued to make all of its payments, it fell into technical default after Ambac Financial Group, which backed the transaction, suffered a credit-rating downgrade. Having not found a suitable replacement, Hoosier faces a $120 million penalty, a sum that could exhaust its cash and credit lines. "It's a huge challenge for us," says Donna L. Snyder, Hoosier's vice-president for finance. "We're a small not-for-profit."

Hoosier may have to pay up soon. In September the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals ruled the utility had to find a new guarantor this year or pay Hancock the money. If the latter happens, residents could face higher electricity rates. Already, Hoosier has hiked rates 3 percent because of the uncertainty of the deal. In the meantime the utility is conserving cash by postponing environmental upgrades to its coal plants and putting off payments to other power companies in the co-op. Says Jonathan Chiel, John Hancock's general counsel: "We've acted reasonably, and we believe no party to the transaction should seek to gain an unfair advantage."

Public transportation systems around the nation could be vulnerable to leaseback blowups. Moody's Investors Service estimates that 25 big municipal transportation authorities entered into deals similar to Hoosier's.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34067419/ns/business-businessweekcom/page/3/


Ok, let's connect the dots. The federal government gave all that money to AIG. AIG in turn gave a lot of it to UBS. Now, Detroit has to pay UBS $400 million in penalties on $800 million in bonds.

The amount of that penalty is an incredible number. It's hard to imagine how a slick financial package designed to save a paltry $2 million a year in interest can balloon into almost half a billion in penalties alone. But then, this is a "derivatives deal," one of those quantum mechanical algorithmic thingamajigs that nobody can explain.

It's really amazing, it's like Wall Street is shaking us down on every level -- from the consumer, to the federal government, the state governments, the cities, pension funds, and even non-profit utilities and transit authorities.

Not that anything will be done about this.. the White House is literally staffed by bankers from Goldman Sachs.
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Re: Local governments fork over billions in fees to Wall Street

Unread postby dissident » Fri 04 Dec 2009, 09:26:56

The incompetence/corruption of politicians is a wonder to behold. What sort of scumbag signs such deals in the first place? They think taxpayer money is an infinite reservoir to be tapped on a whim. I can't stand the whine from these maggots how they have no money and how they need money for this and that. A bank robber feels the need for money too. How about living within your means like the average taxpayer? I understand there are exceptional circumstances where some sort of support is needed but somebody has to keep these clowns on a leash.
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Re: Local governments fork over billions in fees to Wall Street

Unread postby patience » Fri 04 Dec 2009, 09:58:18

My local electric utility buys power from Hoosier Energy, and has already warned that we face rate increases because of this BS, and other cost increases. If the cap 'n trade bill goes through, rates will go up dramatically. Just what Indiana needs right now with UE going out of sight, is a big fee paid to the Wall Street Skanks, for nothing.
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Re: Local governments fork over billions in fees to Wall Street

Unread postby ian807 » Fri 04 Dec 2009, 11:00:34

"Bank robber" just doesn't mean the same thing it used to.
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Re: Local governments fork over billions in fees to Wall Street

Unread postby frankthetank » Fri 04 Dec 2009, 11:02:26

Can't the city just file bankruptcy or not pay?
lawns should be outlawed.
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Re: Local governments fork over billions in fees to Wall Street

Unread postby jbrovont » Fri 04 Dec 2009, 12:23:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dissident', 'I') understand there are exceptional circumstances where some sort of support is needed but somebody has to keep these clowns on a leash.


Or in a cage.
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Re: Local governments fork over billions in fees to Wall Street

Unread postby TreeFarmer » Sat 05 Dec 2009, 20:06:41

I think it all comes back to that common human fallacy, wanting to get something for nothing. The various cities and others saw some "easy money" dangled in front of them and couldn't do anything but take the bait.

Like the Bible says, and others here have repeated: the borrower is the servant of the lender.

TF
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Re: Local governments fork over billions in fees to Wall Street

Unread postby eXpat » Sat 05 Dec 2009, 20:09:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dissident', 'T')he incompetence/corruption of politicians is a wonder to behold. What sort of scumbag signs such deals in the first place?

The sort of scumbag that gets some money out of that of course. :twisted:
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