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Signs of the beginning of the breakdown of JIT distribution.

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: Signs of the beginning of the breakdown of JIT distribution.

Unread postby the48thronin » Sat 21 Mar 2009, 17:49:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('timmac', ' ')
<Snip> the trucking industrial system is not about to collapse,, 1st of all they are enjoying the lower cost of fuel compared to a year ago, 2nd for every 1 trucker/driver removed from the road another trucker gets more miles/hours, 3rd Obama has stopped Mexican truckers from delivering into ours states, now that is going to bring back more drivers, and 4th they will always be some company somewhere to filled the void when there is money to be made..

Yes there will be less truckers and less supplies to be delivered but the system will stand and will be here till fuel runs out....

:mrgreen:



Hmmm chip salad anyone?

The Just In Time system will collapse. on to your points

Fuel is cheaper than it was last year, so are rates. Last year most trucks were charging from 40 to 50 cents a mile FUEL SURCHARGE. Mine topped out at 67 cents a mile. at 7.2 miles to the gallon, the fuel surcharge was paying $4.82 cents toward my fuel leaving my fuel cost at almost nothing, today my fuel surcharge is 14 cents a mile or $1.08 a gallon leaving me paying almost 10 cents a mile for fuel. That 10 cents adds up for those truckers running 3,000 to 5,000 miles a week.

Several major companies announced in the last 2 weeks a pay reduction to owner operators that included a re figure on calculating fuel surcharge that will cut a penny from every mile, and a rate cut of 5 cents a mile.

In other words no one in the trucking industry is enjoying the cheaper fuel, we are enduring it's effects. The shippers are celebrating by not reducing the prices at the retail level they increased and claimed were due to higher "shipping costs".

for every trucker removed..... HMM what part of reduction in over all volume don't you understand?

Obama and the Mexican trucks. The senate and house have been franticly trying to stop the Mexican truck pilot program for two years.

This last desperate attempt to cut funding for the "pilot program" to override the BUSH administrations continuance of that program even after they were ordered to cancel it may succeed, and again may not.. That particular section OBAMA signed out of the budget and referred to the NAFTA commission etc.. The pilot program has not so far stopped. More than that the pilot program itself is a stalking horse. I have driven into lots along side Mexican, Belize, and Canadian trucks for decades. NO ONE seems to care. There is no mechanism to report cabatage violators, there is not mechanism to enforce USA regulations on Mexican trucks. I once asked OOIDA to give me a count of the Mexican trucking companys already legal to operate in the USA the number according to the FMCSA safer sys systems is more than 3,000.

there will always be.... yes Pollyanna there will ?
Last edited by the48thronin on Sat 21 Mar 2009, 19:49:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Signs of the beginning of the breakdown of JIT distribution.

Unread postby vision-master » Sat 21 Mar 2009, 19:16:58

Bring over Polish immigrant truck drivers sponsored by churches.

No taxes for 7 years........ :lol:
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Re: Signs of the beginning of the breakdown of JIT distribution.

Unread postby timmac » Sat 21 Mar 2009, 19:21:47

Well than we are just all DOOMED than..

How many times have we heard that here... LOL


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Re: Signs of the beginning of the breakdown of JIT distribution.

Unread postby the48thronin » Sat 21 Mar 2009, 20:10:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')ew occupations feel every jolt along the nation's economic highway as deeply as trucking. Although the American Trucking Association reported a slight rise in business in November, the previous month was the worst October for hauling cargo by truck in five years. And October is normally the busiest month on the road for the holiday season.

A total of 785 trucking companies with a combined fleet of about 39,000 trucks went out of business in the third quarter, bringing the number of company trucks idled in the first nine months of 2008 to more than 127,000, or 6.5 percent of the industry, reported Donald Broughton, trucking analyst and managing director of Avondale Partners.

The tough times have pushed many drivers who had been on company payrolls out to compete for cargo business with the nation's independent owner-operator drivers, who were already struggling.

Todd Spencer, executive vice president of the Owner-Operator Independent Drivers Association, estimates that the industry probably lost work for about 100,000 drivers in the first half of 2008 when diesel prices were at record highs.

.


http://www.businessfleet.com/News/Story/2009/01/Nearly-800-Trucking-Companies-Out-of-Business-Due-to-Recession.aspx
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Re: Signs of the beginning of the breakdown of JIT distribution.

Unread postby the48thronin » Sat 21 Mar 2009, 20:35:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')PECIAL REPORT: Trucking failures continue at record pace

Tuesday, Oct. 28, 2008 – The economic downward spiral has taken a deeper toll on the trucking industry than ever before with a record number of companies failing in the first three quarters of 2008.

Donald Broughton, a longtime trucking analyst and managing director of Avondale Partners LLC, reported that 785 companies with approximately 39,000 trucks, or 2.0 percent of the nation’s over-the-road heavy-duty trucks, closed their doors in the third quarter.

That brings the total number of trucks pulled off the road in 2008 to more than 127,000 trucks or 6.5 percent of the trucks in the industry.

“The first three quarters of 2008 have already established a new record for the amount of capacity pulled from production within a single year,” Broughton wrote in his third-quarter report on the industry.

“Never have more trucks been pulled off the road in a shorter period of time than in the first three quarters of this year.”

If the pace continues through the fourth quarter, Broughton says 2008 will be “the worst year to be a marginal trucker.”

But, he acknowledges, it could be the “best year to have survived.”

A total of 2,690 companies with five or more trucks went out of business between January and September. Broughton notes that more companies failed in the 2000-2001 trucking downturn, but they were smaller companies than are failing in 2008.

In 2000-2001, the average size of companies that failed was companies with between 20 and 35 trucks. This year, it’s companies with more than 45 trucks.

One saving grace in the third quarter, Broughton notes, was the steady decline in fuel prices. He speculates this may have saved many trucking companies that were on the brink of shutting down.

However, he reports an increase in the usage of “quick pay systems” and factoring.

“This suggests to us that the drop-off in the third quarter will prove to be only a lull in the storm and is not a sign that the worse is over,” he wrote in the report.


http://www.landlinemag.com/Special_Reports/2008/Oct08/102808_Trucking_failures_continue.htm
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Re: Signs of the beginning of the breakdown of JIT distribution.

Unread postby the48thronin » Sat 21 Mar 2009, 21:41:40

I looked for newer articles, but so far newer numbers are not out.

FWIW my own observations, since the new year started the agent who books my loads who was booking loads for 60 trucks last summer has lowered the number of trucks he would book loads for to 20. The other 40 drivers were told to call back when things get better.

The crowd at the Louisville truck show is a much smaller crowd than last year, Recruiters were still there, but most of them were only making lists of interested parties not actually processing people into their fleets. I have been spending a lot of cell time today conversing with people there, they are not finding many opportunities for their friends who are hunting new jobs. ( I ask because I personally know 40 truck owners sitting looking for new places to lease on.)

Truck stop parking lots on the two coasts are fuller in the day times with trucks sitting waiting for freight, while truck stops in the traffic lanes fill up slower or later at night because fewer trucks are actually out working.

The actual numbers I do not yet have, but I think they will be astonishing when they are known. The manufacturing orders are not being placed, the containers are not coming across, and the retail replenishment from JIT distribution centers is falling into "run when absolutely necessary" from run daily... The loss in truck loads of freight will be high and the losses of power units and fleets also will be high!
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Re: Signs of the beginning of the breakdown of JIT distribution.

Unread postby timmac » Sat 21 Mar 2009, 22:31:20

6.5 percent down in the entire trucking industrial system for 2008,, that's not to bad compared to many other business that are off by 30 percent,, 6.5% should not close any company at all unless they were not being ran properly to begin with..

Show me more like 50% down in 12 months than it will look bad, [not 6.5% in 12 months that's nothing]

I do think you are really over reacting here,, I think just because your work has gone south and I am sorry for this but it does not mean it is all collapsing now.

There will still be trucks on the road for many years to come,, calm down....

:-D
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Re: Signs of the beginning of the breakdown of JIT distribution.

Unread postby the48thronin » Sat 21 Mar 2009, 23:24:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('timmac', '6').5 percent down in the entire trucking industrial system for 2008,, that's not to bad compared to many other business that are off by 30 percent,, 6.5% should not close any company at all unless they were not being ran properly to begin with..

Show me more like 50% down in 12 months than it will look bad, [not 6.5% in 12 months that's nothing]

I do think you are really over reacting here,, I think just because your work has gone south and I am sorry for this but it does not mean it is all collapsing now.

There will still be trucks on the road for many years to come,, calm down....

:-D



Again I wonder if we are having two separate conversations. The 6.5 percent is not of the entire trucking industry.. $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '2').0 percent of the nation’s over-the-road heavy-duty trucks, closed their doors in the third quarter.
NOTE the words in the third quarter
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')That brings the total number of trucks pulled off the road in 2008 to more than 127,000 trucks or 6.5 percent of the trucks in the industry.

The first three quarters of 2008 have already established a new record for the amount of capacity pulled from production within a single year,” Broughton wrote in his third-quarter report on the industry.



MY work is not going south, My customers are so far still having their museum pieces moved, their lectures still happen, and the government still needs to open new offices for secure installations. Should all those fail IGT and Bally are always looking for perfect record carriers with 5 million claimless miles of electronics and robotics.

My agent books loads of many types, most of them similar to spec com or commercial moving vans.... another 40 people I know have no work, my customers are not interested in letting them pull the loads I pull. They have their own specialties their work has gone south simply because their customers have gone south. You have made a lot of assumptions I don't feel pertinent to the discussion, but should they be keeping you from understanding the actual topic at hand. I would off thread be glad to explain to you your mistakes.

Lets go back to the purpose of and topic of this thread.

"Just in time" not individual "must be there" such as I do haul, but "just in time" the distribution and supply chain model that eliminated warehouses by demanding movement scheduled to allow manufacture or distribution with no inventory in a warehouse.

I myself do not haul any JIT freight at any time.. I do not work in supply to manufacturers nor do I participate in retail distribution. But those who do are experiencing the effects of the crashing economy brought on by high energy prices.

Those energy prices might have lowered a great deal, but the world is not going back to pre bubble burst days.

One of the permanent changes is the end of JIT. That is what this thread is about.

Your assertions that there will always be trucks are valid in that there will most likely always be people trying to distribute, change the value of something by changing the location of it.

You failure to understand the consequences of the crashing of the logistical system imposed on the entire world for the last 50 years as unworkable not with standing, your assumption that should 25 percent of American trucks stop running you would have gasoline or food in the middle of a desert in a city no one will have any need to go to is possibly short sided.

If 2 percent of long haul trucks left the road in the same month rail road freight dropped by 10 percent..... your life line is becoming a little threadbare.

I hope you are practicing your cactus eating survival skills. Just in case you have mistaken the seriousness of the loss of a major amount of the actual movement of good from one place to another as well as the actual bringing into existence of those goods worth moving.

Chip desert goat milk shakes maybe?
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Re: Signs of the beginning of the breakdown of JIT distribution.

Unread postby timmac » Sat 21 Mar 2009, 23:57:01

See there you go again saying that doom and gloom stuff,, I will still be able to get most any food tomorrow and next year and so on in Vegas 24/7..

Your article also stated that truck deliveries where up slightly in NOV/08, even they have stated in so many words that it will turn around when the weak companies fall away and the remaining ones will be stronger..

I am on path with your links but you quote that we are going to be eating dirt very soon and I don't see it that way, our economy system is going thru some hard times and it will get worse before it levels out but as to eating dirt or cactus as you stated will not be happening any time soon or in the next 10 years if it even happens at all here in the U.S.


:mrgreen:
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Re: Signs of the beginning of the breakdown of JIT distribution.

Unread postby Cloud9 » Sun 22 Mar 2009, 07:08:40

48, keep the information coming in. I will make my own analysis.
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Re: Signs of the beginning of the breakdown of JIT distribution.

Unread postby manu » Sun 22 Mar 2009, 08:09:19

It amazes me that with all the info about the economy on the internet there are so many lemmings still in denial. It's over, go to a farm, buy an ox, maybe you will live, maybe not, but at least you will have a chance. Big buisnesses are history, good bye Monsanto, Cargill, U.S. Gov't. the Fed, the World Bank, IMF and the rest of you blood sucking leeches. Hang em high. Oh, and I almost forgot, good bye to the slobs on the Vegas strip.
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Re: Signs of the beginning of the breakdown of JIT distribution.

Unread postby JJ » Sun 22 Mar 2009, 08:15:34

48, keep it coming, the public is still unaware...

in the meanwhile,

http://enews.ttnet.net/cgi-bin/enews.cg ... &chap.html
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Re: Signs of the beginning of the breakdown of JIT distribution.

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 22 Mar 2009, 08:48:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('the48thronin', '[')Excuse the length of this reply... End disclaimer...LOL


Your description; $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', ' ') Even then it will switch to trains and short hauls from the depot to the store that get the job done

is a description of the changes made in JIT over the last 10 years. You are behind the curve. That change is well underway already.snip

This canary "JIT" has stopped singing.. what do the miners do when the canary dies.... EVACUATE THE MINE not argue about the color of it's feathers or propose to simply buy a parrot instead.

Yoda


You are closer to the Industry and it may indeed be in crisis mode so I'll defer to your expertise.

However.

I don't think the switch to short haul models is anywhere near complete .
The local train station closed its freight office in 1968 and only large bulk customers have had service from then to today. When they reopen those local rail freight offices and my California tomatoes come to me by train then they will have switched. Before that happens the price of diesel will probably rise to over $5.00 per gallon and people will stop heating houses with #2 oil. People will move to within walking distance of their job (If they have one) and driving to a mall to hangout will be a thing of the past. Delivering goods where needed has a much higher priority then any of these with the only higher ones being actually growing our food and national defense.
Of course if you have a thirty percent drop in shipments you need thirty percent less truckers and if your one of the ones idled and are having your truck repossessed its the end of the world as you knew it. :cry:
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Re: Signs of the beginning of the breakdown of JIT distribution.

Unread postby Roy » Sun 22 Mar 2009, 09:29:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ow many times have we heard that here... LOL


Many to be sure. But some times, in cases like this, the posters do know what they're talking about, are acquainted with the data, and are probably correct.

My background: BS in Industrial Engineering. I was taught the greatness of the JIT system, the awesome benefits to be derived by minimizing inventory etc. A wondrous system whereby productivity can be increased and likewise profitability.

I understand how it works (its not that difficult) and why it is the favored system of distribution in a world fueled by cheap petroleum. Clearly, the evidence supports the OP's contention. The articles showing empty containers, idled freighters, mile long lines of empty rail cars and locomotives, trucking companies going out of business seem to align with the idea that JIT system is breaking down.

My uncle is a career driver. He sees the same things. His own company, Miller, has contracted in a huge way over the last few years and the only reason he is still working is due to the union and his 30 years seniority.

Given that data...

I'll take 48thronin's word for it.

Ignore such facts at your own risk.

Chance favors the prepared mind.

PS. It's topics like this one that make this site worthwhile and keep me coming back. Hard data and analysis. Great ppst 48thronin.
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Re: Signs of the beginning of the breakdown of JIT distribution.

Unread postby mcgowanjm » Sun 22 Mar 2009, 10:33:48

vtsnowedin[/quote]
However.

I don't think the switch to short haul models is anywhere near complete .
The local train station closed its freight office in 1968 and only large bulk customers have had service from then to today. When they reopen those local rail freight offices and my California tomatoes come to me by train then they will have switched. Before that happens the price of diesel will probably rise to over $5.00 per gallon and people will stop heating houses with #2 oil. [/quote]

Trains will stop our economy's collapse. Or nothing
will.
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Re: Signs of the beginning of the breakdown of JIT distribution.

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 22 Mar 2009, 11:20:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mcgowanjm', 'T')rains will stop our economy's collapse. Or nothing
will.

Sadly "Or nothing will ", is now the five to one favorite :cry:
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Re: Signs of the beginning of the breakdown of JIT distribution.

Unread postby the48thronin » Sun 22 Mar 2009, 11:50:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mcgowanjm', 'T')rains will stop our economy's collapse. Or nothing
will.

Sadly "Or nothing will ", is now the five to one favorite :cry:




The train has been carrying your packages for years now.

The package office in your town may be closed, but that "goo ga" you orders was placed into a box, then put into a truck and carried to a sorting center.

The box then was sorted into a container and placed on the railroad to the hub nearest the sorting center that services your local truck route.


That is the UPS model, the Yellow model, the fed ex model.

A variety of that is the model for walmart distribution, j c penneys distribution, k mart distribution ad nausium. The rail was absolutely SATURATED with your packages just 12 months ago. I believe I posted a few articles about the rXr conferences last summer that were predicting total collapse of the rail system if they didn't expand and create new rail links to bypass the choke point of Chicago. If I didn't it would have been because either someone else beat me to it, or because as a new member I was not adding new items to the discussion yet.

The rail roads are now crying about the decrease in volume because it is so severe it may in fact place them back in the red at a time that capital is unable to be raised to sustain or grow.

five to one........ make that one hundred to one
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Re: Signs of the beginning of the breakdown of JIT distribution.

Unread postby vision-master » Sun 22 Mar 2009, 12:29:34

Rail was gutted a long time ago.

No, we depend on those poor truckers working 24/7.
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Re: Signs of the beginning of the breakdown of JIT distribution.

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 22 Mar 2009, 13:38:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'R')ail was gutted a long time ago.

No, we depend on those poor truckers working 24/7.


Not really. On a ton-mile basis trains have always carried more freight then trucks. The heaver it is and the further it has to go the more likely it is to move by rail or by ship if possible.
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Re: Signs of the beginning of the breakdown of JIT distribution.

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 22 Mar 2009, 14:10:44

8O While looking for stats on UPS ground shipments I came on this. It shows the real depth of the slowdown. The shipments of metals and autos being down 45%+/- tells the real story. I guess its time to go back to the Doomer prep threads and do more then just read them.
http://railfax.transmatch.com/
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