PeakOil is You
Begging everyone to read this book
Re: Begging everyone to read this book
by Byron100 » Sun 08 Feb 2009, 12:33:52
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'S')o, anyone read it yet? What do you think, especially about the final chapter?
Why is this book so darned expensive? I know the author wants to make a living - but doesn't it make sense to sell 10,000 copies for $20 as opposed to selling a few hundred copies for over $100? Better yet, publish an e-book and sell it for $5 a piece - this is something I've considered doing someday, something like "A Layman's Guide to Surviving the New Depression"...hehe.
Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide...
...and the meek shall inherit the Earth!
...and the meek shall inherit the Earth!
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Byron100 - Tar Sands
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Re: Begging everyone to read this book
by Ludi » Fri 20 Feb 2009, 16:52:27
How do you all feel about Mollison's plan for an alternative nation (final chapter of the book)? Do you think it's practical?
- Ludi
Re: Begging everyone to read this book
by Ludi » Fri 20 Feb 2009, 17:15:26
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '
')Not if there are any predators in the human population who are allowed to succeed. There's not much in there about that.
')Not if there are any predators in the human population who are allowed to succeed. There's not much in there about that.
Our current way of life rewards that kind of predatory behavior. I think it would be much more difficult for those kinds of people (who are the minority) to thrive under Mollison's plan or something like it. I don't think all people need to become angels for his system to work, just for large numbers of people to begin moving in a different direction from the status quo.
What particularly about his plan do you feel is vulnerable to predatory behavior, Shanny? And do you have any ideas about how to circumvent that vulnerability?
- Ludi
Re: Begging everyone to read this book
by Quinny » Fri 20 Feb 2009, 17:25:11
Sorry it's not just about the book Ludi but it bumps it anyway.
Haven't got the book yet, but do intend to buy.
Have got Bill Mollinson's Global Gardener series 1-4 which cover 1. Tropics, 2. Dry Lands, 3. Cooler Climates, 4. Urban, very inspirational.
Can't help but mention the following David Holgrem video which is one of the only things which has given me hope since discovering Peak Oil.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFjFG24BeX8
Haven't got the book yet, but do intend to buy.
Have got Bill Mollinson's Global Gardener series 1-4 which cover 1. Tropics, 2. Dry Lands, 3. Cooler Climates, 4. Urban, very inspirational.
Can't help but mention the following David Holgrem video which is one of the only things which has given me hope since discovering Peak Oil.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFjFG24BeX8
Live, Love, Learn, Leave Legacy.....oh and have a Laugh while you're doing it!
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Quinny - Intermediate Crude
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Re: Begging everyone to read this book
by Ludi » Fri 20 Feb 2009, 17:37:54
No problem!
Glad Mollison has put out more about urban permaculture, which I think is extremely important. So many people get discouraged because they think they have to buy acreage to practice permaculture.
Thanks for the link to that video!
Glad Mollison has put out more about urban permaculture, which I think is extremely important. So many people get discouraged because they think they have to buy acreage to practice permaculture.
Thanks for the link to that video!
- Ludi
Re: Begging everyone to read this book
by Ludi » Fri 20 Feb 2009, 17:40:40
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', ' ')Anyway, it's not a complaint specifically about Mollison's plan, only that I think it needs to be explicitly addressed and is not. Would you banish people who acted on their greed to the detriment of the community? Would you stone them to death? Imprison them? How does the legal system work? Is it informal and village-based? A lot of questions come to mind.
I get the impression he would expect the society to decide on the rules, at whatever level works, whether local or regional. Shunning and banishment have been quite effective in other cultures to discourage bad behavior.
- Ludi
Re: Begging everyone to read this book
by Quinny » Fri 20 Feb 2009, 17:42:50
BTW they are videos 300Mb plus, but can be downloaded from various sources. 
Live, Love, Learn, Leave Legacy.....oh and have a Laugh while you're doing it!
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Quinny - Intermediate Crude
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Re: Begging everyone to read this book
by Ludi » Fri 20 Feb 2009, 17:49:53
I'm enjoying Holmgren talking about "not doing" things, and the gift (love) economy.
- Ludi
Re: Begging everyone to read this book
by Ludi » Fri 20 Feb 2009, 18:14:01
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', ' ')Is that in there anywhere explicitly, though?
Here is the only explicit address toward "dissenters" in groups that I have found so far while reviewing the chapter:
'As for dissenters, there never is any impediment to their setting up their own ideal system, and living in it; or setting up a parallel work group to show how it should be done. Above all there is no one way to do anything. "One solution" systems evolve from the concentration of power in one or other form of dictatorship (business, government, or military.' Chap. 14.10
He doesn't address what to do if your splinter group decides to set up as raiders.
This is the same dilemma we find with Daniel Quinn's "No One Right Way" philosophy, and certainly a practical problem folks had to deal with before civilization. I wish I knew how the Apache here in my region dealt with the Comanche. I do know the German settlers made treaties with the Comanche, which were kept by both parties, but I haven't found information about what the Germans gave the raiders except free access across the settlers' lands.Oh I missed a little bit just above the part of the chapter I quoted, regarding numbers of people in the community:
"1,000- 5,000 people: Usual upper limit of federations of tribes; a good size for a bioregional group or sub-region. Also, a village size limit. Cliques, theft and cheating common and possible; hierarchies are needed."
But he doesn't mention how to deal with the cheating. The implication is, best to keep your village smaller than that, to avoid fostering cheaters.
- Ludi