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Out Of Work

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Out Of Work

Unread postby bratticus » Sun 11 Jan 2009, 18:42:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nefarious', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bratticus', 'H')asn't the collapsing price of oil caused issues?
Not in the slightest .....(for us anyways)

Not yet anyway. In a parallel GAZPROM is closing gas wells.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Russia Gazprom shuts wells, makes losses in gas row
... Russia's gas row with its neighbor Ukraine has forced Russian gas giant Gazprom to shut down over 100 gas-producing wells, local agencies reported on Sunday, quoting Prime Minister Vladimir Putin.
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Re: Out Of Work

Unread postby threadbear » Sun 11 Jan 2009, 19:14:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('misterno', '1')) Stop granting H1b and H2B and whatever the other working visas given to foreigners immediately
100% agree.

ditto
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Re: Out Of Work

Unread postby Ferretlover » Sun 11 Jan 2009, 23:55:01

I am sorry that the list of unemployed is growing (and growing and growing)!
However, I understand the FBI is hiring:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]FBI looking to hire thousands by Richard Essex /Eyewitness News:
Indianapolis - Despite a slumping economy and constant news of layoffs, the FBI is desperate to hire thousands of new employees.
They have been called "G-men" and "The Feds" and their blue shield is almost instantly recognized, but what goes on behind the doors of the Federal Bureau of Investigation is often very much misunderstood. …

link
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Re: Out Of Work

Unread postby Snowrunner » Mon 12 Jan 2009, 00:10:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('misterno', 'w')hat suprises me is that I still see many people around me working with H1B or H2B visas. These people are foreigners and truly they do not deserve to be employed while American born citizens are out of work. I can not believe the number of illegal immigrants and their kids working all over the gas stations, restaurants and pizza places. They may not pay well but at least it is better than being unemployed for any American citizen.

And you have seen Americans who applied for these jobs being turned away?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat the government should immediately do is;
1) Stop granting H1b and H2B and whatever the other working visas given to foreigners immediately

Most people use the H1B as a way to immigrate. I know there are people arguing that people on H1Bs are just hired to undercut American workers, but my experience (in a different country but having worked with people on H1Bs) is that this is mostly not the case, they do get paid the same as all the other workers.

Having been on a Workpermit now for a few years I can also tell you that most companies rather not jump through the legal hoops, and they are much less stringent where I am than they are in the US.

What I am driving at: It is doubtful that a company would rather spends thousands on someone to get them into the country on an H1B if they could just pluck an equally qualified person from the line outside their office.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '2')) Give extra power to local authorities to find out illegal immigrants and deport them right away without sheltering or even giving food. I beleve most departed illegal immigrants cost an airplane ticket to the government and this is really stupid.

Sure, let's just issue everybody an ID card first, and because we're all about speed let's just do away with any judical review, if you are being stopped by a cop and don't have your papers on a cattle truck you go to Mexico.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '3')) Stop the work and travel program where million of foreign students can legally work for minimum wage but displacing American workers.

While paying handsomly to Universities. I am pretty sure the Universities would be crying foul if that would go through.

Besides, as with your gas station example in the beginning, are you aware of any American who got turned down and instead a Student was hired in their place?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '4')) Cancel the OPT program granted to foreign student upon their graduation regardless of their background and major.
OPT Visa is limited to a maximum of one year. A lot of education makes more sense with "on the job" training. As these are usually "training specific" jobs they aren't "full time" positions that would take away a full time position, what exactly would you accomplish by this? Outside of making you feel good, that is.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '5')) Cancel the already given employment visas under H1B, OPT and other visas given to foreigners.
Funny. So people who are in the middle of their immigration process (read Greencard) and are working in the meantime helping most American companies to produce something of value are being kicked out?

Again, as said above, the hoops someone has to jump through to qualify for an H1B, not to mention what the company has to do, make it pretty hard to just bring someone in for cheap. So, you kick all of them out right now (I take it they get to pay their own way?) and then what? Whoever thinks they can do the job does?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')mericans deserve the jobs in America more than any other nationality.
I bite my tongue before I invoke Goodwins law, though with that statement we clearly have reached the point where it is applicable.
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Re: Out Of Work

Unread postby complexburp » Mon 12 Jan 2009, 00:21:07

Sell your house
Take the money and rent a cheap trailer in the mountains.
The money from the house should give you rent for two years.

You don't need to plan for longer than that.
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Re: Out Of Work

Unread postby lawnchair » Mon 12 Jan 2009, 01:19:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cbxer55', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('complexburp', 'S')ell your house.
Most folk are underwater these days!

That. Plus, selling your house involves finding a buyer. Best of luck.
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Re: Out Of Work

Unread postby thuja » Mon 12 Jan 2009, 01:22:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('complexburp', 'S')ell your house
Take the money and rent a cheap trailer in the mountains.
The money from the house should give you rent for two years.
You don't need to plan for longer than that.

Why?
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Re: Out Of Work

Unread postby misterno » Mon 12 Jan 2009, 21:03:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Snowrunner', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('misterno', 'w')hat suprises me is that I still see many people around me working with H1B or H2B visas. These people are foreigners and truly they do not deserve to be employed while American born citizens are out of work. I can not believe the number of illegal immigrants and their kids working all over the gas stations, restaurants and pizza places. They may not pay well but at least it is better than being unemployed for any American citizen.
And you have seen Americans who applied for these jobs being turned away?

Do I have to see Americans turned away from jobs with my naked eye? Or as common sense, I can look around and see there are millions of unemployed Americans while more millions working illegally right infront of our nose and nobody is asking why.
If this would be in another country, individual citizens would kick these people out of the country with their own hands. America has given too much freedom for illegals and H1B so the likes. This is the end. It is time we give those jobs back to Americans who really deserves it.

If the economy picks up, unemployment falls to 3% or so, we the people as Americans may invite them. That is only if we need them. Do you understand the common sense here or do you still want to argue?
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Re: Out Of Work

Unread postby Snowrunner » Mon 12 Jan 2009, 23:28:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('misterno', 'D')o I have to see Americans turned away from jobs with my naked eye? Or as common sense, I can look around and see there are millions of unemployed Americans while more millions working illegally right infront of our nose and nobody is asking why.

H1B holders aren't "illegal". So those are two different classes.

As for the illegals that "take our jobs away": It's funny how all of the sudden these jobs are cherished when not even 12 months ago no "upright" American would have probably taken them.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f this would be in another country, individual citizens would kick these people out of the country with their own hands. America has given too much freedom for illegals and H1B so the likes. This is the end. It is time we give those jobs back to Americans who really deserves it.

I see, Communism, you have the right passport, you get the job. Doesn't matter if you know how to do it, from now on if you're a born American (do naturalized ones count? Or would they have to go "back" as well?) you get the job. Damn your qualification, it's overrated.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f the economy picks up, unemployment falls to 3% or so, we the people as Americans may invite them. That is only if we need them. Do you understand the common sense here or do you still want to argue?

Oh, I see the tendency in your line of arguing quite well. I remember the history lessons from my own country well too. Want to hazard a guess when I read about similar rhetoric?
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Re: Out Of Work

Unread postby misterno » Tue 13 Jan 2009, 23:57:35

I never said H1B holders are illegal, I don't know where you get that idea from.

Funny, you are mentioning Americans did not care about the jobs that illegals are holding and now why are we interested with these jobs that we did not want 6 months ago?

First of all, this is not a question an illegal immigrant can ask because he or she does not belong in here so he/she has no right to speak about issues concerning American citizens or anything related to USA. Just the fact that he is earning money and slavering his labor illegally without permission from US authorities does not give him the right to speak or judge US.

Secondly, Americans can desire and/or inquire about any position at any part of the country anytime they want. America keeps the right to cancel the working visas to these legal immigrants at any time with or without any reason and she should do so immediately.
I can not believe I am still arguing to prove 2X2=4. What a waste of time on my part but it is god damn tempting.
Last edited by misterno on Sun 18 Jan 2009, 23:13:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Out Of Work

Unread postby Snowrunner » Wed 14 Jan 2009, 00:42:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('misterno', 'I') never said H1B holders are illegal, I don't where you get that idea from.

You use the same argument for both illegals and H1B holders and you are demanding that they are all getting kicked out of the country right away.

If you really DO make a difference in the way you are treating these two classes of residents then you did a good job in hiding it.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')unny, you are mentioning Americans did not care about the jobs that illegals are holding and now why are we interested with these jobs that we did not want 6 months ago?
First of all, this is not a question an illegal immigrant can ask because he or she does not belong in here so he/she has no right to speak about issues concerning American citizens or anything related to USA.

Right, pick up the trash as long as we are to cheap to do it ourselves, but don't even THINK for a second that you would have any kind of right because of it.

I think the term you're looking for is called "Slavery". You keep the people around as long as it benefits you and if it doesn't you sell them off or ship them back to wherever you got them from.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'J')ust the fact that he is earning money and slavering his labor illegally without permission from US authorities does not give him the right to speak or judge US.

Actually you are juding yourself by the way to perceive these people and how you would like to see them treated.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')econdly, Americans can desire and/or inquire about any position at any part of the country anytime they want. America keeps the right to cancel the working visas to these legal immigrants at any time with or without any reason and she should do so immediately.

I am not a lawyer and I haven't read the legalese that comes with an H1B (because I never got one), but I DO have experience with other H1B like visas in other countries and I can tell you that the only way the Government can cancel one of these work permits is when the employee is in breach of the Visa agreement.

And no, to say that the Government now thinks they don't want you anymore because some American kid got all teary eyed because they couldn't find a job wouldn't suffice.

Of course feel free to link me to an official document that supports your opinion, but so far it just doesn't mesh with what I know about Working Visas.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') can not believe I am still arguing to prove 2X2=4. What a waste of time on my part but it is god damn tempting.
Too bad that you don't seem to get it.

Have you actually ever applied for a Working Visa in a foreign country? Gone through the process? Understood how much you have deal with the company and how WILLING said company has to be to take you on? it's not like a MacDonalds drive through, most (if not all) of the people who obtain a Working Visa like the H1B are highly skilled people where the companies could not find someone else who fit the bill. There is no "conspiracy" here, there is no attempt to "defraud" American citizens and get "cheap labour".

I am sure you can drag up a few stories that would fit that stereotype, but every system gets abused, the handful of Visa abusers aren't proof positive that the H1B Visa holders "steal" jobs from Americans.

I suggest you talk to someone in HR who does hiring and inquire how much they like to go after things like H1Bs etc. You may be surprised to find out that for most companies this is an option of last resort, not a going practice.

BTW, look at some numbers. Yearly there can be up to 65K H1B visas being issued, these are valid for initially three years, then can get extended for another three years, after which time the H1B holder either must have obtained a Greencard or they have to leave.
How many jobs were lost? Do you think the 65K annually really would make such a huge difference?

But hey, keep spewing your virtole about "America for Americans" all you must, but that still doesn't have your math add up.
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Re: Out Of Work

Unread postby Pretorian » Wed 14 Jan 2009, 01:42:51

I dont have troubles right now, but once I faced the nessesity to survive in the second most expensive city in the world, with $60, for 3 months. 10 days later I had $10. I lost 50 pounds without lifting a finger, in 3 months, and nearly died of duodenial ulcer. In the end, i couldnt eat or drink anything at all, and was vomiting bile and stomack juice 10-15 times a day. My main wish was to crawl into some bushes and pass away there peacefully without disdainfull pouts of passer-bys. That sucked, to put it lightly.
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Re: Out Of Work

Unread postby Ayoob » Wed 14 Jan 2009, 05:53:26

I think our foreign friends are going to be Shown the Door some time soon.

Goodbye, hope you enjoyed your stay and had fun with the money.

See you next time! Bye! Go home and write us!
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Re: Out Of Work

Unread postby EndOfGrowth » Wed 14 Jan 2009, 08:45:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nefarious', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'M')aybe you can hire some of these guys: Schlumberger Begins Laying Off Hundreds of US Workers
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ilfield services giant Schlumberger Ltd. (SLB) has begun laying off hundreds of workers in the U.S. and around the world in the first of what experts say will likely be a wave of job cuts in the energy industry.
Halliburton Co. (HAL), Schlumberger's largest rival, said Thursday that it also will be cutting jobs, but provided no details.
Schlumberger, the world's largest oilfield services firm by market capitalization, said Thursday that it plans to lay off about 1,000 workers in North America, about 5% of its workforce there. The company also is cutting some of its 65,000 overseas workers but said it does not yet have exact figures.

Schlumberger and Halliburton cater mostly to the drilling side of the oilfield. Two separate entities between production and drilling. Production is still going strong in spending money but if prices remain low I think production will start cutting back on monies to be allocated for projects. Monies were allocated for 2009 in 2008. If the price doesn't rise 2010 will be a bad year for oilfields services that cater to the production end of the spectrum. I think if the price can hover around 60 a barrel things will be fine on my end. If it drops to 25 to 30 a barrel and remains there I will become extremely worried come the end of the year.


Don't worry, the Iranian's will see to it that the price of crude picks up again soon .
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Re: Out Of Work

Unread postby Maddog78 » Wed 14 Jan 2009, 09:35:02

I have also seen the arguement that Visa holders actually helped increase employment in the host country because they are highly skilled people who help a company become successful and grow, thus needing to hire more local workers.
As the case has been made, these Visa holders are the last resort for a co. to turn to. If they could have found a national to do the job they surely would have. Much less hassle with paperwork, relocation, etc.
This downturn may change the demand for such people but that was surely the case in the good years.
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Re: Out Of Work

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Wed 14 Jan 2009, 10:20:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s the case has been made, these Visa holders are the last resort for a co. to turn to. If they could have found a national to do the job they surely would have. Much less hassle with paperwork, relocation, etc.

Not quite true. If they could have found a national to do the job at the rate they wanted to pay, they surely would have.
Many times, the work visas are more about reducing wages, rather than finding a qualified person in our own country.
And I won't even go into the possibilities of training or educating more people from this country to do the work. Higher education in this country will soon be only for the rich. Thus far it has been more for those willing to saddle themselves with large debt or with well off parents. I know - many exceptions exist. I am speaking of average case, not the few.
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Re: Out Of Work

Unread postby jdmartin » Wed 14 Jan 2009, 12:42:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hawkcreek', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s the case has been made, these Visa holders are the last resort for a co. to turn to. If they could have found a national to do the job they surely would have. Much less hassle with paperwork, relocation, etc.

Not quite true. If they could have found a national to do the job at the rate they wanted to pay, they surely would have.
Many times, the work visas are more about reducing wages, rather than finding a qualified person in our own country.
And I won't even go into the possibilities of training or educating more people from this country to do the work. Higher education in this country will soon be only for the rich. Thus far it has been more for those willing to saddle themselves with large debt or with well off parents. I know - many exceptions exist. I am speaking of average case, not the few.


+1 I agree with this sentiment. I specifically know of a local company (this was in the newspaper, so it was no secret) that decided to outsource a whole telemarketing department. They got the visas for the foreign workers that would be taking the jobs back in their own country, brought a bunch of them over here to learn how to do the job, made the current employees train them (no way in hell I would have done it - I'd quit first), then sent the foreigns back to their country (India) and shut the department down. They didn't need those visas *at all* except to bring the people in for some real-live training by Americans.
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Re: Out Of Work

Unread postby Maddog78 » Wed 14 Jan 2009, 13:12:19

I was thinking more of highly educated Engineers, Professors, Medical people etc. not telemarketers. :lol:

But yeah, I guess there are examples for both scenarios, scams and legitimate needs.
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Re: Out Of Work

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 14 Jan 2009, 20:14:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') was thinking more of highly educated Engineers, Professors, Medical people etc. not telemarketers.


It's easy to look with disdain on phone-work jobs. But, alas, not every person in North America can find work as a professor, physician, or engineer.

In the old days, folks went to places in person to get their business handled. Nowadays, this sort of common everyday business is all done over the phone. Clerks have moved from local branch offices to centralized call centers.

So I agree, these aren't dream jobs. But they're a big chunk of all we have left in the way of non-professional jobs. When the last of these jobs has gone to India, what will we have left? We don't manufacture anymore. I suppose folks could go to radiology school, but I hear Indians are starting to use the Internet to examine our x-rays, so there goes that.
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Re: Out Of Work

Unread postby Snowrunner » Thu 15 Jan 2009, 02:24:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hawkcreek', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s the case has been made, these Visa holders are the last resort for a co. to turn to. If they could have found a national to do the job they surely would have. Much less hassle with paperwork, relocation, etc.

Not quite true. If they could have found a national to do the job at the rate they wanted to pay, they surely would have.
Many times, the work visas are more about reducing wages, rather than finding a qualified person in our own country.


Really? I guess that's why I was always in the top tier of what the market was paying when I was on a Working Visa.

Heck, the last extension they got a bit antsy because the way my pay was structured (they paid me MORE than they had initially said they would and that didn't "sit right" with the people approving the paperwork, we had to split it up in "base pay" and "bonus pay". Go figure.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd I won't even go into the possibilities of training or educating more people from this country to do the work.


Sure, but that would require companies to hire on a long term outlook, not project specific. Especially in the IT field (for which H1B is mostly used) the projects tend to come up very quickly. The money for the people you need is not available until the project has been approved and budgeted, by then you have a deadline and you need the people NOW, not six months or a year out. That's already a problem with the H1s, because it takes on average 12 months to obtain a Visa (I know, I was talking with a company in the US a few years back who wanted me too and they were in the end offering more than the going market rate was AND they were willing to do all the paperwork for a Greencard. They were even willing to wait the 9 months it would have taken. I am not someone with three PhDs etc. to his name but I have worked in some seriously large environments on projects and yet, they were willing to go "out of their way" to hire me. Tell me why if they could have picked up someone locally? (As for why I didn't take it? I didn't want to move to the States, I was (and am) happy where I am right now and so far I have never just "followed the money".)).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')igher education in this country will soon be only for the rich. Thus far it has been more for those willing to saddle themselves with large debt or with well off parents. I know - many exceptions exist. I am speaking of average case, not the few.


Sure, but that's a problem that is not related to the H1B visa holders, that's a problem because the Education Industry convinced everybody that you need at least a BS or BA before you are useful, most BS or BA holders I have found, fresh out of school, are useless, even ones who come out of "well respected" institutions.
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