by Eli » Mon 29 Dec 2008, 13:38:25
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nickel', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eli', 'T')here is no deal to be made with the Palestinians.
Tell me what deal could be struck with you if I show up, take your house and your land, kick you off, and leave you and your children squatting on waste ground in tents. I'd love to hear what crusts I could throw you that would make you feel all warm and affectionate towards me.
If anyone deserved to lose territory for a Jewish state after the Holocaust, it was Germany, not Palestine. But the Jews got stuck on something that hadn't been theirs since A.D. 70, and the rest of us are all supposed to agree it's just peachy for them to elbow their way though everyone else's teeth to have it, and bawl when the people who HAVE been living there for millennia don't care to be dispossessed? Excuse me if I (or any other fair-minded human being) don't see it that way.
I am not arguing that point, the Palestinians were kicked off of the their land during a war and have a deep seeded hatred of Israel. But it is not like they have not been offered peace agreements.
If they agreed to lay down their arms and give up Hamas they could have peace. But that is not a popular idea when what they really want is to see Israel destroyed.
by Nickel » Mon 29 Dec 2008, 16:10:47
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eli', 'I') am not arguing that point, the Palestinians were kicked off of the their land during a war and have a deep seeded hatred of Israel. But it is not like they have not been offered peace agreements.
Well, I AM arguing that point, to MAKE the point. So having kicked you and your kids out of your house into a tent in a field someplace, having put a fence around you segregating you from your job and the rest of mankind, just what could I offer you that would make you forget all that and happily spend the rest of your life making flapjacks in a tent? Just what would make you give up wanting to kill me? I'm curious.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eli', 'I')f they agreed to lay down their arms and give up Hamas they could have peace. But that is not a popular idea when what they really want is to see Israel destroyed.
Oh? Well, why don't the Israelis give up THEIR arms to have peace? Why don't they dismantle their nukes to have peace? Why is the onus on the people who were attacked and dispossessed to make nice to the people who ruined them? Honestly... are you insane?
by eastbay » Mon 29 Dec 2008, 16:13:53
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'W')hat the Palestinians want is it to be Palestine again with a government that represents their interests.
Their "interests" include not a 2-state solution but the ethnic cleansing of Jews off of the entire Levant. So that ain't gonna happen without a fight.
Yup. and in time, as we've already discussed here, it'll ultimately be a fight the Zionists will lose, and lose big. Like, 'no more Israel' big.
Got Dharma?
Everything is Impermanent. Shakyamuni Buddha
by threadbear » Mon 29 Dec 2008, 18:12:20
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nickel', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eli', 'T')here is no deal to be made with the Palestinians.
Tell me what deal could be struck with you if I show up, take your house and your land, kick you off, and leave you and your children squatting on waste ground in tents. I'd love to hear what crusts I could throw you that would make you feel all warm and affectionate towards me.
If anyone deserved to lose territory for a Jewish state after the Holocaust, it was Germany, not Palestine. But the Jews got stuck on something that hadn't been theirs since A.D. 70, and the rest of us are all supposed to agree it's just peachy for them to elbow their way though everyone else's teeth to have it, and bawl when the people who HAVE been living there for millennia don't care to be dispossessed? Excuse me if I (or any other fair-minded human being) don't see it that way.
God, but I wish the Jewish state had been created in Saskatchewan. We have a sorry legacy of sticking original settlers on reservations, too, but it would have been so much easier to just pay the farmers to move to the city and let European Jews go to it on the Prairie.
by threadbear » Mon 29 Dec 2008, 18:16:06
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'W')hat the Palestinians want is it to be Palestine again with a government that represents their interests.
Their "interests" include not a 2-state solution but the ethnic cleansing of Jews off of the entire Levant. So that ain't gonna happen without a fight.
Legally speaking, this is actually a good strategic position. Ask for something unreasonable and settle for something like all of your land back that has been stolen from 1966, forward.
by threadbear » Mon 29 Dec 2008, 18:39:59
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nickel', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eli', 'I') am not arguing that point, the Palestinians were kicked off of the their land during a war and have a deep seeded hatred of Israel. But it is not like they have not been offered peace agreements.
Well, I AM arguing that point, to MAKE the point. So having kicked you and your kids out of your house into a tent in a field someplace, having put a fence around you segregating you from your job and the rest of mankind, just what could I offer you that would make you forget all that and happily spend the rest of your life making flapjacks in a tent? Just what would make you give up wanting to kill me? I'm curious.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eli', 'I')f they agreed to lay down their arms and give up Hamas they could have peace. But that is not a popular idea when what they really want is to see Israel destroyed.
Oh? Well, why don't the Israelis give up THEIR arms to have peace? Why don't they dismantle their nukes to have peace? Why is the onus on the people who were attacked and dispossessed to make nice to the people who ruined them? Honestly... are you insane?
The mainstream media NEVER offer this point of view. Never in my lifetime, have I seen anything on CBS, for example, that provided even enough basic context, to encourage me to put myself in a Palestinian's shoes. It's all about Israel and how they suffer. They have a cult of victimhood that far too many people are exploiting. Sure, it's based on fairly recent historic anguish, but is it appropriate, right there, right now? Absolutely not.
I think MOST Arabs have an understanding of the emotional dynamics of their occupiers. But one has to wonder if fear , hatred and poor leadership make it impossible for Israelis to have even a basic understanding of their enemy? If this is the case, there is real peril ahead for Israel. This kind of blindness, or disregard of the experience of your enemies, both individually and politically, can bring down whole nations. It's going to play a large part in the eventual demise of the U.S. as a world power too....and maybe through convergence of events in the same part of the world.
The British beat the Germans in WW2, in large part, by developing a keen understanding of their emotional and mental life. But the Germans and British were evenly matched, so the British had no choice. It's interesting that understanding the opponent can help defeat them, as well as help in negotiating towards peace. One of the signifying marks of a true bully victim relationship is a significant power imbalance together with an inability to develop an appreciation of the opposition's or victim's reality. The bully doesn't have to, so simply doesn't do it.
This is why I think it's imperative that Israel, collectively, finally come to understand that it has more to lose by failing to negotiate in good faith. They will eventually understand that the costs of occupation far outweigh the benefits of leaving the territories. Hamas has actually pushed the envelope and is going to force other Arab nations to unify against Israel, because the Arab nations, will have no choice.
