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THE Homeless Hooverville Tent City Thread (merged)

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Re: The Return of Hoovervilles

Unread postby diemos » Fri 19 Dec 2008, 23:58:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', 'C')learly these Hoovervilles -- tragic as they are -- aren't an impact of hydrocarbon depletion. Oil is overflowing from storage and selling for $35 a barrel.


Sorry JD, you have cause and effect reversed. Oil is cheap BECAUSE these people are now living in tent cities and not consuming.

This is the glorious "low oil consumption" future that you were telling us all would be just peachy keen.
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Re: The Return of Hoovervilles

Unread postby yesplease » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 12:39:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'T')his is exactly the kind of clearly peak oil related discussions I like to have here! The sneak preview we see in this video of what will be 'normal' in the near future clearly demonstrate the coming widespread slide up close and personal.
If you had visited any major city at just about any time in the past few decades you would've seen homeless. The only difference here is that unlike most cities Ontario didn't immediately kick the residents out of the area. This isn't about peak oil, this is about the nation's homeless. They have been suffering for decades.

That people would use the suffering of others to further their own crazy notions is disgusting, and as a moderator I can't believe you're encouraging this. :(
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Re: The Return of Hoovervilles

Unread postby eastbay » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 14:02:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'T')his is exactly the kind of clearly peak oil related discussions I like to have here! The sneak preview we see in this video of what will be 'normal' in the near future clearly demonstrate the coming widespread slide up close and personal.
If you had visited any major city at just about any time in the past few decades you would've seen homeless. The only difference here is that unlike most cities Ontario didn't immediately kick the residents out of the area. This isn't about peak oil, this is about the nation's homeless. They have been suffering for decades.

That people would use the suffering of others to further their own crazy notions is disgusting, and as a moderator I can't believe you're encouraging this. :(



Well, you can start believing it. All news and information related to the economic collapse and ANY ideas about its causes, particularly peak oil related causes, are very welcome here.

How could anyone possibly have an issue with that? Well, it doesn't really matter. This website is The Best because it welcomes discussion from all facets of an issue, and among the top issues today are peak oil and the great economic collapse. This is the place where their interrelatedness is discussed. Bring on more of it!! :)

Maybe you could list a few?
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Re: The Return of Hoovervilles

Unread postby yesplease » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 14:40:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'W')ell, you can start believing it. All news and information related to the economic collapse and ANY ideas about its causes, particularly peak oil related causes, are very welcome here.
Homelessness has been around for centuries, I doubt it's caused by peak oil. At best we're in a recession right now, since I doubt there would be anyone posting on this forum in the event of an economic collapse, but hey, if we're allowed to make stuff up in threads these days then I suppose I can't complain about freedom of speech. :P
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'H')ow could anyone possibly have an issue with that?
I have a personal issue w/ people using the suffering of others for their own purposes, but I didn't realize the forum administration condoned this practice so I guess there isn't much to say. :oops:

Edit- It isn't prohibited in the COC so I guess it's fair game. :(
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Re: The Return of Hoovervilles

Unread postby eastbay » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 15:04:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', ' ')At best we're in a recession right now...



Man, I hope you're right. Most will be fine if that's all there is to it. If homelessness doesn't get any worse it'll be a drag, but not a catastrophe. We'll all find out as the weeks and months pass by.

There's a sliver of optimism remaining in me that says we'll make it through this much as we've made it through so many other economic downturns. But it's overshadowed by a deeper feeling that we won't be able to power our way out as we have in the past.

If we're now on the peak of oil production, and I believe we are, then the energy to increase the economy simply won't be there as we begin our descent off the plateau. And that process could very well be starting right now meaning peak oil has been and will continue to play a huge part in making this matter worse.
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Re: The Return of Hoovervilles

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 15:26:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', 'H')omelessness has been around for centuries, I doubt it's caused by peak oil. At best we're in a recession right now, since I doubt there would be anyone posting on this forum in the event of an economic collapse, but hey, if we're allowed to make stuff up in threads these days then I suppose I can't complain about freedom of speech.


Of course Homelessness has been around for Centuries. So has Poverty. So has Greed. So has Starvation. So has War.

I have brought these issue up with a friend of mine a few times, a devout Christian who believes that Armageddon will come someday, just not right now and "Its the same as its always been. War and Rumours of War".

Well, I have been alive for more than half a century, and I can say with assurance that NO, it isn't ALWAYS like this.

When in your lifetime do you remember Tent Cities forming up in many different locales in the USA?

When in your lifetime do you remember the Big 3 Automakers all on the verge of Bankruptcy, really only not yet outta biz because they are getting funny money?

When in your lifetime do you remember the biggest Investment Banks all brought to their knees at the same time?

When in your lifetime do you remember another Trillion$ being printed every month?

This is all due to a "Credit Crunch" and a "Housing Bubble"? There is nothing underlying that? Of course it relates to productivity issues, which of course relate to increasing scarcity of Oil. You persistently come in and deny all connections to Peak Oil, and make the absurd case that "there has always been homelessness". To you, we are "at best in a minor recession" because the internet is still up and running? When its quite obvious from the exploding number of news stories that job loss is cascading forard at ever increasing pace and CA is holding emergency budget meetings to close a budget gap wider than the Grand Canyone? When each week a new Major Industry comes begging the Federal Goobermint for Funny Money to bail out their sinking ship? This is all "business as usual" to you?

Your denials get tiresome, they don't address what is occuring right before our eyes, and your analysis is so full of holes its astounding you can even keep it up, much like it astounds me that the debit cards are still working and the food is still on the supermarket shelves. You obviously will deny everything until the internet does in fact go down and you can;t deny it publicly anymore, and then after that you will deny it to yourself until you are starving, at which point you will say "People starve all the time". Yeesh.

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Re: The Return of Hoovervilles

Unread postby yesplease » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 18:58:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'W')hen in your lifetime do you remember Tent Cities forming up in many different locales in the USA?

When in your lifetime do you remember the Big 3 Automakers all on the verge of Bankruptcy, really only not yet outta biz because they are getting funny money?

When in your lifetime do you remember the biggest Investment Banks all brought to their knees at the same time?

When in your lifetime do you remember another Trillion$ being printed every month?

This is all due to a "Credit Crunch" and a "Housing Bubble"? There is nothing underlying that?
It is mostly due to the Credit Crunch and Housing Bubble. In the case of people who could lost their homes in Ontario it is due to those two to a greater degree than was seen on average because the inland empire was the second most overheated real estate market in the U.S. It doesn't matter if gas prices went up by one or two dollars a gallon when housing prices were increasing by $50,000 per year.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'O')f course it relates to productivity issues, which of course relate to increasing scarcity of Oil.
You could expect that the impact of oil's price due to it's scarcity would impact the recession. So over the decade we've seen ~200 billion per year in extra costs due to oil's short run elasticity. Otoh, over the same time period total net borrowing and lending have increased by about ~2700 billion, quite a bit of which involved variable interest rates that would eventually drive monthly payments through the roof. Care to guess which one would impact the economy more?

Course, oil prices lagged net lending, so some of the price increase was likely due to a change in the income elasticity of demand, the point being that some of oil's price increase was due to the huge credit bubble the formed, which is supported by the fastest decline in prices in oil's history. Not that they won't climb in the future because of supply and demand fundamentals, just that they shouldn't climb due to another credit bubble. Anyway, odds that when looking at the 2nd most inflated housing market in the U.S., people had trouble w/ home ownership because prices increased by over $50,000/year, and fraudulent lending practices were common. Not because their yearly gasoline costs increased by about $1,000/year. People could buy more fuel efficient vehicles if need be, but they could not expect to live in an area where home prices were increasing astronomically.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'Y')ou persistently come in and deny all connections to Peak Oil, and make the absurd case that "there has always been homelessness".
I'm not denying the connection that higher oil prices have to economic hardship, just pointing out their relative scale to the credit crisis, especially in this case. Picking one of the most inflated housing markets and making light of it wrt peak oil is illustrating one of the weakest connections, at the expense of people who are suffering it. This is disgusting IMO, but y'all can lap it up if ya wanna. Just don't count me in.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'T')o you, we are "at best in a minor recession"
I never said that, but thanks for the strawman! Is there anything else you would like to fabricate in order to address? I just love how people here are interested in reasonable discussion. :roll:
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Re: The Return of Hoovervilles

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 19:15:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'T')o you, we are "at best in a minor recession"
I never said that, but thanks for the strawman! Is there anything else you would like to fabricate in order to address? I just love how people here are interested in reasonable discussion. :roll:


OK, what you ACTUALLY wrote was

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', 'A')t best we're in a recession right now, since I doubt there would be anyone posting on this forum in the event of an economic collapse


Granted you wrote "at best" not "minor". The distinction is irrelevant, your meaning was clear and it was paraphrased accurately.

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Re: The Return of Hoovervilles

Unread postby yesplease » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 19:19:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'O')K, what you ACTUALLY wrote was

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', 'A')t best we're in a recession right now, since I doubt there would be anyone posting on this forum in the event of an economic collapse


Granted you wrote "at best" not "minor". The distinction is irrelevant
I disagree. The distinction between a minor recession and a recession involves a lot of suffering and hardship. That you would consider this irrelevant speaks volumes about your character. :(
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Re: The Return of Hoovervilles

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 19:26:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'O')K, what you ACTUALLY wrote was

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', 'A')t best we're in a recession right now, since I doubt there would be anyone posting on this forum in the event of an economic collapse


Granted you wrote "at best" not "minor". The distinction is irrelevant
I disagree. The distinction between a minor recession and a recession involves a lot of suffering and hardship. That you would consider this irrelevant speaks volumes about your character. :(


No doubt, this is a major character flaw of mine.

Recessions are by definition minor. When you get a lot of suffering and hardship, its a DEPRESSION.

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Re: The Return of Hoovervilles

Unread postby yesplease » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 19:30:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'N')o doubt, this is a major character flaw of mine.

Recessions are by definition minor.
Like I said before, that you would consider a recession minor, when people are suffering through hardship, speaks volumes about your character. :x
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Re: The Return of Hoovervilles

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 19:36:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'N')o doubt, this is a major character flaw of mine.

Recessions are by definition minor.
Like I said before, that you would consider a recession minor, when people are suffering through hardship, speaks volumes about your character. :x


Since they are suffering through hardship, its not a recession. Its a DEPRESSION

Any further attempts by you to mitigate your scrambled thinking by attacking my character will not be responded to.

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Re: The Return of Hoovervilles

Unread postby eastbay » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 19:39:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'N')o doubt, this is a major character flaw of mine.

Recessions are by definition minor.
Like I said before, that you would consider a recession minor, when people are suffering through hardship, speaks volumes about your character. :x


Yeah, RE, how did you get so downright insensitive anyhow??? :-D :-D
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Re: The Return of Hoovervilles

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 19:41:25

8) This most certainly is a useful discussion for those at peak oil. Just a few months of high oil prices topping at 145/bl sends the SUV industry into the doldrums and the economic house of cards begins to collapse. Tent citys in Ontario which is (,soon to be 'was',) a major auto manufacturing hub are an indirect effect of those high oil prices and an excellent example of the economic collapse that has always been predicted to be the consequence of peak oil. The fact that a three month price spike with no real shortage of oil can cause such havoc means that the worst of the doomers prognostications may be understatements of the third order. At the very least it allows us to observe how TPTB will react to groups of newly homeless people showing up in their jurisdictions. So far the lot of the zombies is sad indeed.
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Re: The Return of Hoovervilles

Unread postby yesplease » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 19:53:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'N')o doubt, this is a major character flaw of mine.

Recessions are by definition minor.
Like I said before, that you would consider a recession minor, when people are suffering through hardship, speaks volumes about your character. :x


Since they are suffering through hardship, its not a recession. Its a DEPRESSION
Just because people suffer through hardship doesn't make it a depression, not that you care either way. The scope and duration of the economic contraction are what determine whether or not it's called a recession or depression.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'A')ny further attempts by you to mitigate your scrambled thinking by attacking my character will not be responded to.
I can't attack what doesn't exist. That said, as someone who resorts to strawmen arguments and considers the suffering and hardship of others irrelevant I don't see any downside to a lack of response on your behalf.
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Re: The Return of Hoovervilles

Unread postby patience » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 19:57:29

Yes, the homeless are in a sad situation. I think most of the cynicism here about "zombies" comes from the inability to determine the character of the unfortunate. Mark Twain in true cynical form, warned, "If you take a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man."

Too many of us assume that because a person is unfortunate, it means they are unworthy. Not so. It is just tough to sort 'em out. Obviously, not a job for the police.
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Re: The Return of Hoovervilles

Unread postby yesplease » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 20:03:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'I') cannot apologize to Yesplease enough
Don't apologize to me. Instead of prognosticating d00m at the expense of those who are less fortunate, get up off yer butt and go help those people! :)
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Re: The Return of Hoovervilles

Unread postby cube » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 20:12:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '.')..
No doubt, this is a major character flaw of mine.

Recessions are by definition minor. When you get a lot of suffering and hardship, its a DEPRESSION.
NO need to sound apologetic ReverseEngineer, I totally agree with you.

*looks out bedroom window*
Image
We're still in a recession so by definition it is minor. 8)
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Re: The Return of Hoovervilles

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 20:45:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '.')..
No doubt, this is a major character flaw of mine.

Recessions are by definition minor. When you get a lot of suffering and hardship, its a DEPRESSION.
NO need to sound apologetic ReverseEngineer, I totally agree with you.

*looks out bedroom window*
Image
We're still in a recession so by definition it is minor. 8)


A little sarcasm goes a long way Cube :-)

Anyhow, how many Bushvilles were there in our prior Recessions? I don't remember any even back in the 70s. The concept that this is not a Depression, or at least the leading edge of it because GDP and Unemployment numbers don't meet some arbitrary defintion of which is which is absurd. How long do the Bread Lines have to get before you call it a Depression anyhow?

"Its always been like this, there are always Homeless people." Always War in some far away country, always somebody starving somewhere, no doubt. Defining when a Recession becomes a Depression is not about the numbers in the GDP, which are endlessly manipulated, its when the suffering becomes palpable and when its not just in Bangladesh but in Ontario CA and Detroit and Florrida and many other places here in the Homeland you can Google up right now to find the stories of misery and economic dislocation.

Minor recession could be considered a redundancy on my part, but its hardly a character flaw. I've lived through recessions, they are tough on people but they generally are not living in tents and in their cars, and formerly middle class people many of them. Yesplease just makes this kind of argument because her arguments are so scrambled she has to resort to ad hominem attack. Its tiresome to respond to that, but you do have to point out the flaws despite the fact it makes you a target. Doesn't bother me much, I am a target all the time for this type of attack. Which should tell you something about my arguments. They make sense. :-)

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Re: The Return of Hoovervilles

Unread postby cube » Sat 20 Dec 2008, 22:28:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'H')ow long do the Bread Lines have to get before you call it a Depression anyhow?
...
Defining when a Recession becomes a Depression is not about the numbers in the GDP, which are endlessly manipulated,
There are *subjective* statements and then there are *objective* statements.
If I were to say the economy really isn't that bad or severe that is subjective.
We can sit here and debate until the cows come home what the hell is "bad" or "severe".
What a wonderful way to waste time and what value would we receive from such a discussion! --> none --> so why bother engaging in one? :wink:
but....
If I were to say "GDP has contracted", then that is an objective statement. That can be measured and quantified.
A lot of drama can be eliminated on this forum if everybody would limit their discussion to *objective* statements.
Besides "Economics & Finance" is suppose to be *objective*. It's not about people's feelings.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'Y')esplease just makes this kind of argument because her arguments are so scrambled she has to resort to ad hominem attack. Its tiresome to respond to that, but you do have to point out the flaws despite the fact it makes you a target. Doesn't bother me much, I am a target all the time for this type of attack. Which should tell you something about my arguments. They make sense. :-)
Yesplease is on a lot of people's ignore-list and for a good reason.
Welcome to the "I've been verbally harassed and attacked by Yesplease" Fraternity.
The membership just keeps on growing and growing.
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