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Preparation, Bragging, Jealousy and Responsibility

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Re: Preparation, Bragging, Jealousy and Responsibility

Unread postby JJ » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 08:38:21

I was talking to a lady in the produce department yesterday about storing food in case of an emergency, and she started mocking me and said "why should I store food? It would only go bad, maybe get full of weevils or something. I have a whole house full of guns and I know how to gut a deer...." :( I wonder how many people are going to just go out and shoot a deer?
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Re: Preparation, Bragging, Jealousy and Responsibility

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 09:05:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JJ', 'I') was talking to a lady in the produce department yesterday about storing food in case of an emergency, and she started mocking me and said "why should I store food? It would only go bad, maybe get full of weevils or something. I have a whole house full of guns and I know how to gut a deer...." :( I wonder how many people are going to just go out and shoot a deer?

Well I can tell you that venison cut up and cooked with your prep rice and veggies from your gardenodoom makes a very good stir fry. But having hunted for years and having learned great respect for the deers ability to stay out of alignment with my sights you should never count on eating a deer until you have it hanging by the block and tackle.:)
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Re: Preparation, Bragging, Jealousy and Responsibility

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 09:10:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'T')he motte and bailey fortifications of the dark ages speak to a time of marauding hordes looking for food. Apparently these things were thrown up all over Europe at a time of social collapse. Considering the time of construction and the man hours required the treats on the local population must have been real and terrible.

http://www.castlewales.com/motte.html


This level of anarchy must have been brought about by climate collapse and the corresponding collapse of agriculture.


So zombie hordes look like blue painted Picts. or Viking berzerkers?
I think you have made a quantum leap to the wrong conclusion there.
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Re: Preparation, Bragging, Jealousy and Responsibility

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 09:16:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'W')ell I can tell you that venison cut up and cooked with your prep rice and veggies from your gardenodoom makes a very good stir fry. But having hunted for years and having learned great respect for the deers ability to stay out of alignment with my sights you should never count on eating a deer until you have it hanging by the block and tackle.:)


Did you ever go out hunting with 20 or 30 children and spread them around to drive the game into a Kill Zone?

Hunting by yourself is a challenge. Hunting in Groups is no challenge at all.

Of course, you do have to avoid accidentally shooting one of the kids, but they are usually identifably different than the deer in daylight anyhow.

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Re: Preparation, Bragging, Jealousy and Responsibility

Unread postby wisconsin_cur » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 09:31:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'W')ell I can tell you that venison cut up and cooked with your prep rice and veggies from your gardenodoom makes a very good stir fry. But having hunted for years and having learned great respect for the deers ability to stay out of alignment with my sights you should never count on eating a deer until you have it hanging by the block and tackle.:)


Did you ever go out hunting with 20 or 30 children and spread them around to drive the game into a Kill Zone?

Hunting by yourself is a challenge. Hunting in Groups is no challenge at all.

Of course, you do have to avoid accidentally shooting one of the kids, but they are usually identifably different than the deer in daylight anyhow.

Reverse Engineer


And that works for the first few days of the season.... after that the drives stop working because deer are bed down somewhere safe and they start staying there even if you walk within 5' of them. The problem is not feeding one person in a great wilderness on what they find it is when everyone has the same plan.
http://www.thenewfederalistpapers.com
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Re: Preparation, Bragging, Jealousy and Responsibility

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 09:40:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'W')ell I can tell you that venison cut up and cooked with your prep rice and veggies from your gardenodoom makes a very good stir fry. But having hunted for years and having learned great respect for the deers ability to stay out of alignment with my sights you should never count on eating a deer until you have it hanging by the block and tackle.:)
Did you ever go out hunting with 20 or 30 children and spread them around to drive the game into a Kill Zone?
Hunting by yourself is a challenge. Hunting in Groups is no challenge at all.
Of course, you do have to avoid accidentally shooting one of the kids, but they are usually identifably different than the deer in daylight anyhow.

We do deer drives and any other method you can think of has at least been tried once. One time I went down to Penn. and thought it was funny that they had rules prohibiting shooting a live tree and having more then 25 people in a drive. I never figured out who would shoot a live tree but I guess after WW2 some of the noncom vets ran their camps like they ran the platoon and it got a bit out of hand. I have enough trouble getting six adults to understand and follow the plan walking the right routes much less try herding twenty kids wearing blaze orange through what is to them a strange woods.
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Re: Preparation, Bragging, Jealousy and Responsibility

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 09:47:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '[')And that works for the first few days of the season.... after that the drives stop working because deer are bed down somewhere safe and they start staying there even if you walk within 5' of them. The problem is not feeding one person in a great wilderness on what they find it is when everyone has the same plan.


Absolutely true. It only works in a highly underpopulated zone of hunters vs game. You would not have much success long term with this in Wisconson. I lived there for a while BTW.

Not quite the same up here as of yet. Until such time as we get somewhere near the population of people up here relative to the game that is extant in Wisconson, thsi shoudl work OK for a while. Besides, there still are the fish anyhow. How much land mass is there in Wisconson? How much land mass is there in Alaska? How many people are living in Wisconson? How many people are living in Alaska?

Apples and Oranges Cur.

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Re: Preparation, Bragging, Jealousy and Responsibility

Unread postby duke » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 09:55:28

Now they are not zommbies but... in africa for as long as I can remember I have seen on the news and read and heard about mass migrations of tens of thousands to hundreads of thousands of scared, hungry and starving people moving from one location to another. Crossing border lines without permission. Setting up camps in...the open countryside. Not the cities. Ever notice that?

Then via the same sources have noticed a sharp increase in rape, mass murders, genocide, food supplies being stolen by those with the guns and more. Like I aid DNA is DNA. Human nature is human nature. If you do not agree that that could happen here...is it because you think we are better than them????

I saw hundreds of thousands of Iraq citizens flee across borders to set up life in other adjoining nations. I call that relocation. Wandering to a large degree. Because there was enough money in the region to feed them etc, it did not get all that deperate.

I understand that illegal alien bums here are now migrating more from our cities to the suburbs and countrysides. Interesting?

Relocation or wandering from one crisis scene to what is hoped to be a better place requires traveling through the countryside. Ever notice that roads from one city/town to another go through the countyside. The main one maybe not through farm lands but...the alternate ones sure do. An exodus from a disaster site (in a larger population area) prime target for terrorists by the way, will pour many into the countryside. What they end up doing there (I believe) will be directly linked to their on hand water supply, food supply, fuel supply and and shelter they have.

Most vehicles if lucky enough to be filled up are able to travel 300 miles or so. Less if not full. That can place them out of the city and into the countryside running out of fuel to keep going on, by your location. Main roads or alternate roads...either way a real good chance under certain circumstances a country living people could be covered up with people who ran out of fuel and are thirsty, hungry and desperate.

To avoid this we located ourselves on a dead end dirt road backed up to the Nation Forests here. (Only so much a poor old boy can do). No vehicle access to the woods from our road either. Anyone looking at a map can see this is not the way to go or get to the woods to try and exist there. (I have heard and read) many think they will be doing just that.

I mention it would really be great if it was summer but these roads up there are not plowed out for six months a year. No way in..and no way out for the fools who try to hide there. We just got 18" of snow in the last 24 hours.

We do not (during a real crisis event) expect huge hoards of organized people to come this way. Why pick this dead end road out of all the others around here? Where did they get the precious fuel to travel with. If it has snowed...no one even plowed the road open. It would probably be closed for several months. If they walked way out here the best they can hope for is, if they do find anything at all...they will need to carry it back. Not a real bright plan.

Regardless we have taken measures to deal with unwanted visitors. Contrary to some who post here it is not shoot on sight. However a smart man keeps all his options on the table...right?

Questions...Just what is a zommbies anyway. What do they look like and do they walk with that limp thing going on? Do they prefer white or dark meat? Are veggie eaters? Can they even be killed?
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Re: Preparation, Bragging, Jealousy and Responsibility

Unread postby mos6507 » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 10:03:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'i')ts about impossible for this population by itself to consume the fisherie currently extant

You make it sound like nobody eats fish except the local fishermen.

Seafood Gone by Mid Century
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'B')y community building though, you can lessen the chances that this die off hits your particular area so hard or quite so rapidly as having Gunfights out in the streets over a can of beans.

Being in Alaska you think you can avoid facing up to carrying capacity issues. It's just another flavor of irrational exhuberance like the europeans when they first came to the unspoiled americas. You should know better than that. You may be at an initial advantage but I think you're going to have to deal with it eventually. If you don't come to some concensus on how to enforce sustainability up front when forming the community you're going to run into major infighting over this later.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'C')annibalism in the end in this scenario.

When I think of cannibalism I think of the Donner Party and the movie Alive based on the plane crash in the Andes. Both of those just so happened to feature harsh wintery conditions ;)
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Re: Preparation, Bragging, Jealousy and Responsibility

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 10:07:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', ' ')I have enough trouble getting six adults to understand and follow the plan walking the right routes much less try herding twenty kids wearing blaze orange through what is to them a strange woods.

Teaching disciplined behavior to children is my BUSINESS VT. I would rely on the kids I teach to follow a plan laid out for them, because that is in fact what I do every darn day. Teamwork and Personal Responsibility is possibly the most important part of what I teach. They are fast, they are strong kids. I would bet on many of them to be able to run down a deer. They have less weight, they run only on two legs. They aren't faster, but they would wear a deer down before they were wore down. That is the advantage of running on two legs of course. Put a few of them out in the woods, they would do a fine job driving game.

I have not as yet had to experiment with this method, but if things get as bad as we imagine here, I expect we might try it. If we do, I'll let you know how it works out.

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Re: Preparation, Bragging, Jealousy and Responsibility

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 10:27:56

:? The wife said that kids are like baseball. After three strikes you are out. So I will never have to try twenty kids at a time. I'll leave that to you teachers and the scout masters.
Of course if you have a twenty man party you have to devide the kill twenty ways. Hope the shooters are good at running shots and you have a dog to track down your cripples.
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Re: Preparation, Bragging, Jealousy and Responsibility

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 10:31:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'i')ts about impossible for this population by itself to consume the fisherie currently extant
You make it sound like nobody eats fish except the local fishermen. Seafood Gone by Mid Century

I said by OURSELVES we could not consume the fisherie. We export quite a bit of it, and quite a bit more is taken by Japanese fishig boats and so forth. If it gets nasty, I do not think that locals here will take kindly on others fishing the waters. We do have more than a few Coast Guard cutters and more than a few Jets on the bases up here that would enforce the local fishing rights :-) Even if the military fractures, I still think the locals here protect their own food source, hell all the military have their families up here.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'B')y community building though, you can lessen the chances that this die off hits your particular area so hard or quite so rapidly as having Gunfights out in the streets over a can of beans.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')eing in Alaska you think you can avoid facing up to carrying capacity issues. It's just another flavor of irrational exhuberance like the europeans when they first came to the unspoiled americas. You should know better than that. You may be at an initial advantage but I think you're going to have to deal with it eventually. If you don't come to some concensus on how to enforce sustainability up front when forming the community you're going to run into major infighting over this later.

No I do not think we can avoid the issues of carrying capacity, and in fact probably the total population of this state right now is more than it can support long term. However, the die off can be managed gradually over a generation or two with fairly normal life expectancy of da olden days, 50-60 years old mostly. I figure to be dead in 10 years at the outside. Eventually, I figure carrying capacity here to whittle its way down to about 1/3 current population.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hen I think of cannibalism I think of the Donner Party and the movie Alive based on the plane crash in the Andes. Both of those just so happened to feature harsh wintery conditions ;)
Darn cold the last couple of weeks up here, below zero farenheit every day. Just starting the car is a pain in the butt of course. Plenty of good ways to die up here, and freezing to death is a good possibility. Its one of the reasons you probably do not see mass migration here anytime too soon. Bad as it might be elsewhere, very few people like living in a REALLY cold environment like this. Its by no means certain that we could make it sustainable either, its a crapshoot, so probably you don't want to come here. I however AM here, and this is where I make my last stand. Maybe it won't work, I don't know for sure. All I can do is think about how it MIGHT work, and do my best to help my community achieve sustainability. Do you not think about the same thing for your community?
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Re: Preparation, Bragging, Jealousy and Responsibility

Unread postby StormBringer » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 10:35:26

R.E. have you considered, what if there is a war for oil, what little oil that remains will be high priority targets and Alaska is a large target. How close are you to the oil fields? And what's the status of those fields are they in decline as well? Its a matter of which fields will run out first, if Alaska is still producing after the middle east or Russia is out you will have a very large hungry country on your hands. And since we will defend it to the last you would be smack dab in the middle. Just a thought.
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Re: Preparation, Bragging, Jealousy and Responsibility

Unread postby wisconsin_cur » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 11:02:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '[')And that works for the first few days of the season.... after that the drives stop working because deer are bed down somewhere safe and they start staying there even if you walk within 5' of them. The problem is not feeding one person in a great wilderness on what they find it is when everyone has the same plan.

Absolutely true. It only works in a highly underpopulated zone of hunters vs game. You would not have much success long term with this in Wisconson. I lived there for a while BTW.

...
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ow many people are living in Wisconson? How many people are living in Alaska? Apples and Oranges Cur.

Population of Anchorage (not counting the outlying "burbs") = 260283

Population of Alaska = 663,661

It is not apples and oranges if all of your people are concentrated in very small places. It is not like they are spread evenly over Alaska.

Lets assume for a moment that the inuit had a fairly sustainable and stable population for the environment.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he first official census (1880) reported a total of 33,426 Alaskans, all but 430 being of aboriginal stock.

Link

So some simple math 33,000 is what percent of 663,000?

5%... that means, assuming the inuit knew as much about sustainable living in Alaska as you do, need to reduce the population by about 95%.

How do you plan to do that?
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Re: Preparation, Bragging, Jealousy and Responsibility

Unread postby mos6507 » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 11:09:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'I') figure to be dead in 10 years at the outside.

And you're in your 50s? I guess expecting the worst and hoping for the best is a good way to go, but jeez.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', 'D')o you not think about the same thing for your community?

I don't really have a permanent community yet (hence my blog). Where I am now is probably only going to be an extended pitstop.
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Re: Preparation, Bragging, Jealousy and Responsibility

Unread postby mos6507 » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 11:14:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', 'H')ow do you plan to do that?

If RE won't be around in 10 years he'll probably never see how it plays out.
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Re: Preparation, Bragging, Jealousy and Responsibility

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 11:15:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '5')%... that means, assuming the inuit knew as much about sustainable living in Alaska as you do, need to reduce the population by about 95%. How do you plan to do that?

Well, first off I consider all the people living in Anchorage as Dogmeat. That knocks off half the population of the state right there.

Second is the fact the Inuit did not have good boats to do offshore fishing. thrid the Inuit did not have any farming capability at all, whereas we have some now.

Carrying capacity for Alaska in the time of the Inuit, maybe 35,000. With what we have available NOW, more like 100,000 IMHO. Once you knock off all the city dwellers of Anchorage, we should do OK with natural die off. Since most folks in Anchorage are Republicans, this is no great loss to the world. LOL.
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Re: Preparation, Bragging, Jealousy and Responsibility

Unread postby wisconsin_cur » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 11:35:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '5')%... that means, assuming the inuit knew as much about sustainable living in Alaska as you do, need to reduce the population by about 95%. How do you plan to do that?
Well, first off I consider all the people living in Anchorage as Dogmeat. That knocks off half the population of the state right there.
Second is the fact the Inuit did not have good boats to do offshore fishing. thrid the Inuit did not have any farming capability at all, whereas we have some now.
Carrying capacity for Alaska in the time of the Inuit, maybe 35,000. With what we have available NOW, more like 100,000 IMHO. Once you knock off all the city dwellers of Anchorage, we should do OK with natural die off. Since most folks in Anchorage are Republicans, this is no great loss to the world. LOL.

Won't you be cast into hell for not taking care of your neighbor? Where is you community spirit now?
How much of that "new capabilty" is sustainable?
I thought you were just going to live off of fish and Caribou?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')gricultural production is primarily for consumption within the state and includes nursery stock, dairy products, vegetables, and livestock. Manufacturing is limited, with most foodstuffs and general goods imported from elsewhere.

Link
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')laska imports from the other states about 90 percent of its food. Very little of its vast area is suitable for farming. Good land is usually covered with trees and is difficult and expensive to clear. Farm machinery and fertilizer are also expensive because they must be imported.

Link

Ok so you only need to get rid of 90%... though it would be interesting to see how long you could keep that 10% alive without imported fertilizer or even through the bottleneck as you change over to natural fertilizers.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RE', 'O')nce you knock off all the city dwellers of Anchorage, we should do OK with natural die off. Since most folks in Anchorage are Republicans, this is no great loss to the world. LOL.
It is amazing how quick you are to quote scripture when you want to condemn someone else but you never feel the need to apply it to yourself.

Luke 10:25-37
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '2')5On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[a]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"
30In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho,...$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"
37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."
Those you condemn at least acknowledge that they cannot save the world. You attack them for being greedy and not taking care of their community and you are ready to cast them into hell. Then you are ready to cast off 1/2 your state as "dog meat" and no great loss. What word would we use to describe that type of argument?

[spoil]hypocrisy?[/spoil]
http://www.thenewfederalistpapers.com
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Re: Preparation, Bragging, Jealousy and Responsibility

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 11:39:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('StormBringer', 'R').E. have you considered, what if there is a war for oil, what little oil that remains will be high priority targets and Alaska is a large target. How close are you to the oil fields? And what's the status of those fields are they in decline as well? Its a matter of which fields will run out first, if Alaska is still producing after the middle east or Russia is out you will have a very large hungry country on your hands. And since we will defend it to the last you would be smack dab in the middle. Just a thought.


The Oil question is a tough one on many levels. My opinion right now is that its marginal in the EROEI, and unless the price comes back up reasoablyquickly, about all North Slope production will come to a grinding halt. this will devastate the local economy on all levels. putting about everyone out of work. Many epople will leave the state if that happens. that of course from my point of view is good.

These oil fields are not the ones that will be fought over, they are not productive enough and they are hard to get at. Over time though, I think we will pipe down the NG from the slope, if for no other reason then to provide the local are with plenty of energy. The oild tough to me seems to expensive to get anymore for sale prupoes. I don't know though, its hard to imagine how is going to be financed aftermonetary sytem collapse. I doubt we get nuked though.

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Re: Preparation, Bragging, Jealousy and Responsibility

Unread postby StormBringer » Thu 18 Dec 2008, 11:55:16

I believe it is just a matter of time and the price for oil will rise to a "drill level", so i wouldnt give up on those jobs just yet. But with the impending shortage I think the importance of Alaska's contribution will grow, not to mention the untapped fields. Either way to leave the notion on the table of invasion to gain control of Alaska would be worth a moment to consider for your plans. As for me Mo. is a major site for our nuke's and to leave out the "Target" factor would be unwise. So if a war would escalate Having over 100 nukes in your back yard places us high on the "get your butt nuked list" lol
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