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I no longer believe in Peak Oil!

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: I no longer believe in Peak Oil!

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 06 Dec 2008, 17:35:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Rogozhin', 'I')f this site fostered community building (there isn't a 'hometown' or 'state' forum) then I'd be more supportive,


So foster community building on this site! Why do you expect someone else to do it for you? You won't even tell anyone what you're doing in your own little world - not a very good model for community building, are you? :P
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Re: I no longer believe in Peak Oil!

Unread postby TonyPrep » Sat 06 Dec 2008, 17:40:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mkwin', 'W')e did have 2 mbpd capacity
Only if you believe OPEC claims, without question. The IEA has said that is where virtually all of the spare capacity is, but, of course, such claims have not been independently audited. So it's more accurate to say that "we may have had between 0 and 2 mbpd of spare capacity".

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mkwin', 'B')ack to the original OP, whether peak oil happens in the short-term depends on if the scheduled production supply increases from 2011-2012 onwards. Watch the 2012 figure closely over the next 18 months!
Indeed. Of course, it may already have happened. July was the peak month, this year, though revisions may alter that. It seems likely that the current severe recession may lower the eventual peak (if it hasn't already happened). But the next 18 months will be interesting, as were the last.
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Re: I no longer believe in Peak Oil!

Unread postby vaseline2008 » Sat 06 Dec 2008, 18:53:25

Peak Oil is not a belief, it's a fact. Nothing is perpetual and nothing lasts forever. It is only in hindsight where we will know when the Peak was.
I'd rather be the killer than the victim.
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Re: I no longer believe in Peak Oil!

Unread postby Rogozhin » Sat 06 Dec 2008, 19:09:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Rogozhin', 'I')f this site fostered community building (there isn't a 'hometown' or 'state' forum) then I'd be more supportive,


So foster community building on this site! Why do you expect someone else to do it for you? You won't even tell anyone what you're doing in your own little world - not a very good model for community building, are you? :P


I'm a poor roll model, I'll agree. :)
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Re: I no longer believe in Peak Oil!

Unread postby Concerned » Sat 06 Dec 2008, 20:00:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mkwin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')DIT:
Actually if we exceed 86 mbpd in 2012 I will eat humble pie and admit how terribly wrong my judgment was based on current events!


We exceeded 86 mbpd this year. If demand was there we could produce 88-89 mbpd now. Spare capacity is now around 4 mbpd back at 2003 levels. Hence the price reversal to that level.


If we had a well functioning economy with a foundation of cheap energy sure we could have 88-89 mbpd demand.

Problem is you cant create energy by printing money.

I'll wait to 2012 if your cornocupians end up right the John Denvers of the world I will gladly admit being WAY OUT and wrong.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box."
-Italian Proverb
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Re: I no longer believe in Peak Oil!

Unread postby tmulk » Sat 06 Dec 2008, 20:06:03

Peak is here. We have already seen it. Peak oil isn't an opinion, as someone said. It's fact. Yeah, the price has gone down. It might continue to go down some more. But when it rebounds, there's no telling what's going to happen.

This has all been factored in by all of those who have written about peak oil for years, Simmons and the others.

They have all said, oil would get expensive. The economy would suffer. People would quit spending. Oil would go down due to demand destruction. The price would go low enough that the search for new sites would stop. Extracting heavy sour crude would become more expensive, as price plummets. Extraction of heavy sour would be cut. The price of oil would start back up. Oil supply will not be there. Countries will end up outbiding us, (America). Opec will start pumping again, only this time, it will be in limited quantities. Etc, etc, etc.

Peak oil is here, folks. IT has hit. IT is fact. Most refineries today have already or are in the process of making the change over from sweet light to heavy sour crude. They started this change over years ago. How do I know? I have an uncle who started out with Sinclair years ago, a geophysist. I also have a cousin who works for an american oil company (won't say which one), at a refinery, who told me two years ago they were making the change over in equipment at that point.

It's here, it's fact, it's not going away.
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Re: I no longer believe in Peak Oil!

Unread postby mos6507 » Sat 06 Dec 2008, 22:50:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('tmulk', '
')They have all said, oil would get expensive. The economy would suffer. People would quit spending. Oil would go down due to demand destruction.


How many times do people have to continue to chime in to have peak oil take credit for destroying the economy instead of the credit crunch? Yes, we will have price fluctuations and NO, this fluctuation is not primarily driven by peak oil. It just looks that way to some beause of the timing. It's driven by global industry grinding to a halt due to the credit crunch. Enough already! There is more than one way to see oil demand drop besides high oil prices and other events that take place around the globe can still occur independently of peak oil.
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Re: I no longer believe in Peak Oil!

Unread postby tmulk » Sat 06 Dec 2008, 23:56:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('tmulk', '
')They have all said, oil would get expensive. The economy would suffer. People would quit spending. Oil would go down due to demand destruction.


How many times do people have to continue to chime in to have peak oil take credit for destroying the economy instead of the credit crunch? Yes, we will have price fluctuations and NO, this fluctuation is not primarily driven by peak oil. It just looks that way to some beause of the timing. It's driven by global industry grinding to a halt due to the credit crunch. Enough already! There is more than one way to see oil demand drop besides high oil prices and other events that take place around the globe can still occur independently of peak oil.


Ok, show me one place in my post where I said that peak oil has to take the credit for 'destroying the economy'. I said no such thing. Do not put words in my mouth that are not there.

It's true that the credit crunch has had a whole lot to do with it, but where did this all come about? The economy was suffering LONG before the banks started crashing. Trucking was suffering LONG before the banks started crashing. Petroleum goods (other than oil and gas) were already suffering LONG before the banks started crashing. So although oil didn't cause the 'credit crunch' you refer to, it HAS alot to do with the downturn of the economy in general.
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Re: I no longer believe in Peak Oil!

Unread postby geolog » Sun 07 Dec 2008, 00:29:09

Peak Oil…?...Everything isn’t so bad…

According to the estimate made by the USGS (WPA 2000) “approximately 800 billion barrels are awaiting discovery in the coming 25 years. Implying a tripling of current annual discovery for a period of 25 years”. This desired increase of annual discovery still isn’t achieved. However, the USGS forecast is real, because a great possibility of improving discovery rate can be achieved as a result of technological progress in exploration methods.

With new technologies (like patented invention US 7,330,790) oil industry could make three times more oil and gas discoveries than when using conventional technology. And the fact that new technology won't need more investments than a conventional one is also very important. It could significantly mitigate world energy problems. The technology is designed and successfully tested in the Barents and the Black Seas as well as in the Gulf of Mexico (see: www.binaryseismoem.weebly.com).

I do not know who will be interested in the technology… Big Oil Co.? OPEC ? No, they dream for oil price to go back to $100 and more. OPEC cut down oil production and does not want to increase discoveries worldwide. Bureaucracy in geophysics or geology? No, they do not want any changes in conventional exploration technology to increase discoveries and production. May be US government and people?
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Re: I no longer believe in Peak Oil!

Unread postby kublikhan » Sun 07 Dec 2008, 03:12:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jasonraymondson', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'S')o you shall be leaving us shortly, Mr. Raymondson?
Most likely once I can find a forum that doesn't make me regret singing from the hills the end of days brought on by oil. I am tired of being a doomer, regardless of what happens... I am done worrying. If the crap hits the fan I have guns, otherwise I have flowers to plant once the thaw comes.
I don't hate anyone here nor am I calling anyone a liar.
I have just realized that a life of negativity is not a way to live. A lot of interesting stories take place on here, but really. I have posted over 3000 posts since I joined this site, and that is way to much damn time to spend doing something without actually accomplishing anything.
Not everyone on this site is a doomer. Check out the UserGroups. There are nearly as many Moderates/Cornucopians as there are doomers. It's just that the more extreme elements of the forum tend to be the loudest and the most sure of themselves. You don't have to scream about the end of days from hilltops to be concerned about the peaking of world oil production. Looking at the price of oil as a barometer to judge if we have peaked or not is not a wise thing to do.

But If you are unhappy with this site in particular, perhaps you would be happier over at: The Oil Drum. Personally I like the format here better, but to each his own. Also, it sounds like you are exiting the doomer camp and entering the Cornucopian/optimist camp. If so, you might want to check out JD's website: PeakOil Debunked.
The oil barrel is half-full.
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Re: I no longer believe in Peak Oil!

Unread postby mkwin » Sun 07 Dec 2008, 05:26:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Concerned', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mkwin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')DIT: Actually if we exceed 86 mbpd in 2012 I will eat humble pie and admit how terribly wrong my judgment was based on current events!
We exceeded 86 mbpd this year. If demand was there we could produce 88-89 mbpd now. Spare capacity is now around 4 mbpd back at 2003 levels. Hence the price reversal to that level.

If we had a well functioning economy with a foundation of cheap energy sure we could have 88-89 mbpd demand.
Problem is you can't create energy by printing money.
I'll wait to 2012 if your cornocupians end up right the John Denvers of the world I will gladly admit being WAY OUT and wrong.

You don't have to be a cornocupian to disagree with your figures. Many Peak Oilers see peak between 2015 and 2020 with differing rates of decline and differing decline slopes.
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Re: I no longer believe in Peak Oil!

Unread postby mkwin » Sun 07 Dec 2008, 05:31:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')nly if you believe OPEC claims, without question. The IEA has said that is where virtually all of the spare capacity is, but, of course, such claims have not been independently audited. So it's more accurate to say that "we may have had between 0 and 2 mbpd of spare capacity".

Well SA apparently had 2mbpd in heavy crude but, even if you don't believe that, Nigeria had a significant amount of locked in capacity due to its civil unrest.

Given prices are falling to 2003 levels it would seem logical spare capcity is now there also.

If demand actually declines next year (say by 2 mbpd) we would have 6 mbpd spare capacity - $30 oil anyone?
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Re: I no longer believe in Peak Oil!

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sun 07 Dec 2008, 06:11:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Rogozhin', 'Y')ou can give me 2012 (my name is Peter), and in three years I'll be quoting your inane proposition.

Your name is Peter and you went through 2 abortions?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Rogozhin', 'I') think he meant 'birth control'?
You'll have to define 'normal'. Within both of my marriages I've been through two abortions (both were medication abortions).

Poor man. It must hurt a lot.

Btw, how they did it to you? :-D :-D :-D
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Re: I no longer believe in Peak Oil!

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Sun 07 Dec 2008, 07:14:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Rogozhin', 'Y')ou can give me 2012 (my name is Peter), and in three years I'll be quoting your inane proposition.
Your name is Peter and you went through 2 abortions?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Rogozhin', 'I') think he meant 'birth control'? You'll have to define 'normal'. Within both of my marriages I've been through two abortions (both were medication abortions).
Poor man. It must hurt a lot. Btw, how they did it to you? :-D :-D :-D

Brain Scrambling with a Knitting Needle no doubt.

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Re: I no longer believe in Peak Oil!

Unread postby Rogozhin » Sun 07 Dec 2008, 08:14:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Rogozhin', 'Y')ou can give me 2012 (my name is Peter), and in three years I'll be quoting your inane proposition.

Your name is Peter and you went through 2 abortions?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Rogozhin', 'I') think he meant 'birth control'? You'll have to define 'normal'. Within both of my marriages I've been through two abortions (both were medication abortions).
Poor man.
It must hurt a lot. Btw, how they did it to you? :-D :-D :-D

That was a foolish statement I made.

:(
"Those who long for exaltation look upwards, but I look downward for I am the exalted."

Thus Spake Zarathustra
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Re: I no longer believe in Peak Oil!

Unread postby skeptik » Sun 07 Dec 2008, 11:47:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('OilFinder2', 'V')ery observant, wise young grasshopper. Five months ago the buzzword here was that the price of oil would be high from now on to forever. It was never supposed to go below $100 ever again.

What the grown ups were saying back in February.

"What to do? Sell or short commodities, perhaps via exchange traded funds, stocks in companies that produce them or futures. Commodity prices, still high, are poised to fall hard as the worldwide recession takes hold."

http://www.forbes.com/global/2008/0310/019.html
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Re: I no longer believe in Peak Oil!

Unread postby GreyFox » Sun 07 Dec 2008, 13:27:03

The coming Greater Depression has bought some limited time for the Peak Oil crisis to begin. Nothing else about Peak Oil has changed. The only question now is how long and how deep will this Depression be.
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Re: I no longer believe in Peak Oil!

Unread postby jbeckton » Mon 08 Dec 2008, 13:07:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GreyFox', 'T')he coming Greater Depression has bought some limited time for the Peak Oil crisis to begin. Nothing else about Peak Oil has changed. The only question now is how long and how deep will this Depression be.

Wow, you really ration your posts! (2 posts in 3 1/2 years)
Those that cannot do..... teach. Those that cannot teach......teach gym.-Jack black
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Re: I no longer believe in Peak Oil!

Unread postby copious.abundance » Mon 08 Dec 2008, 13:16:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('skeptik', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('OilFinder2', 'V')ery observant, wise young grasshopper. Five months ago the buzzword here was that the price of oil would be high from now on to forever. It was never supposed to go below $100 ever again.
What the grown ups were saying back in February.
"What to do? Sell or short commodities, perhaps via exchange traded funds, stocks in companies that produce them or futures. Commodity prices, still high, are poised to fall hard as the worldwide recession takes hold." link

Great link, that was a good call.

Now, if someone had posted that on this forum back in March when it was written, it would have been scoffed at and derided - even though many of the scoffers and deriders would have agreed with the writer that a recession was imminent, if not already underway.

I said it before, and I'll say it again: You can't have your doom and eat it, too. :)
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: I no longer believe in Peak Oil!

Unread postby TonyPrep » Wed 10 Dec 2008, 04:02:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mkwin', 'W')ell SA apparently had 2mbpd in heavy crude but, even if you don't believe that, Nigeria had a significant amount of locked in capacity due to its civil unrest.
Given prices are falling to 2003 levels it would seem logical spare capcity is now there also.
If demand actually declines next year (say by 2 mbpd) we would have 6 mbpd spare capacity - $30 oil anyone?

Spare capacity is that capacity that can be brought into production within a short time (I can't remember if it's 30 days or 90 days) and can be maintained for a significant time (several months, at least). I'm not sure Nigeria's so-called spare capacity fits those criteria.

It is also not logical to suggest that prices at 2003 levels would see spare capacity at the same levels as 2003. If many producers are on the decline and many millions of barrels per day of extra capacity is needed just to replace declines, then there is certainly no guarantee that consumption will fall enough to allow such spare capacity to be realised.

According to the latest EIA estimates, in their STEO, September production was virtually the same as consumption, whilst both October's and November's consumption exceeded production. If they are right, there is little market driven reason to suppose prices will not rise soon. However, markets are all over the place, at the moment, so who knows?
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