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THE US Tax Thread (merged)

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Your current federal tax (as a percentage)?

Poll ended at Sun 03 Apr 2005, 15:29:51

0 to 5 percent
3
No votes
5 to 10 percent
2
No votes
10 to 15 percent
3
No votes
15 to 20 percent
4
No votes
20 to 25 percent
1
No votes
25 to 30 percent
5
No votes
> 30 percent
5
No votes
 
Total votes : 23

Re: We should increase taxes to fix the system!

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 28 Nov 2008, 10:02:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'E')merson;
Do you have a source for that chart? It dos'nt jive with any figures I can goggle up. Particularly the very complete pie chart on the 08 budget that wiki has. I know the 08 budget is now blown to kingdom come but not by the military budget. Lets play with real numbers shall we.


Voila!


Oh I see they do not include Trust Funds like Social Security and Medicare. Thats quite a misstatement of the facts don't you think?
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Re: We should increase taxes to fix the system!

Unread postby Nickel » Fri 28 Nov 2008, 14:58:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', 'I')'ve got a eureka moment: how about cutting the defense budget? IMO that money is better spent on a national healthcare plan. (why defend a people you can't even properly take care of?)


+1
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Re: We should increase taxes to fix the system!

Unread postby Nickel » Fri 28 Nov 2008, 15:29:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', 'H')ow about we all pay NO taxes and pay directly for everything we need.

Wow. Crazy huh?


Indubitably. How many bombers are you personally lining up to buy?
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Re: We should increase taxes to fix the system!

Unread postby TommyJefferson » Sat 29 Nov 2008, 10:11:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nickel', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', 'H')ow about we all pay NO taxes and pay directly for everything we need.
Wow. Crazy huh?


Indubitably. How many bombers are you personally lining up to buy?


Ha! Exactly. This reminds me of the old hippie poster I used to see when I was a kid back in the 70's...

Image

By the 1970's the hippies from the 60's had gotten jobs teaching high school. We used to go over to our teachers' houses for bong hits. They were misguided, but essentially good people. I still like old hippies and have wine and dinner with them frequently.
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Re: We should increase taxes to fix the system!

Unread postby patience » Sat 29 Nov 2008, 11:04:52

The UK and Italy are paying higher rates on bonds:

Link

If/when, this problem hits the US is when the tax increases will start, along with cutbacks. We're using other peoples' money to finance our govt spending. When they notice that the US is a poor credit risk, the bucket goes empty. Then, we live on our income? What a concept!
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Re: We should increase taxes to fix the system!

Unread postby bratticus » Sat 29 Nov 2008, 13:55:17

Treasure your trips to the airport. Gather the rose petals while ye may. Have eureka moments about throwing money down a great big hole. Whatever.
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Re: We should increase taxes to fix the system!

Unread postby cube » Sun 30 Nov 2008, 06:23:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', 'H')ow about we all pay NO taxes and pay directly for everything we need.
...
With the exception of extreme cases MOST people realize that everything ever provided by government was made possible by taxing its citizens. --> no such thing as a free Lunch
I never understood why 50% of the population were Liberals.
Maybe they actually believed that lie when politicians say they're going to tax the rich and give it to the poor!
*dies of laughter*
//
I once explained the significance of income vs. capital gains taxation and how the rich use that to their advantage.....perfectly legal of course.
It was NOT a popular post. :wink:
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Re: We should increase taxes to fix the system!

Unread postby TommyJefferson » Sun 30 Nov 2008, 10:46:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'I') never understood why 50% of the population were Liberals.


It's easy to understand. Leftists are bought and paid for. The derive sustenance from the men-with-guns-and-badges machine.

That's why you never hear them question the fundamentally violent nature of the machine.

They only become irate about how the proceeds from the violence are disbursed.

"We must go to Mars"!

"We must study particle physics"!

"We must combat childhood obesity"!

"We must use military violence to bring peace to the Congo"!

"We must study why cars crash"!

"We should increase taxes to fix the system"!

Leftists are fundamentally immoral at their very core.
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Re: We should increase taxes to fix the system!

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Sun 30 Nov 2008, 11:11:38

Before you can increase taxes to fix the system, you have to fix the system to increase taxes. If the system isn't making any money, a 100% Tax rate still brings you Zero Tax Revenue.

Or you could take the Free Market Capitalist's ideas and Loan Money to Yourself to Tax yourself on later, then complain about all the Lefties who are a drain on your system.

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Re: We should increase taxes to fix the system!

Unread postby dream16 » Sun 30 Nov 2008, 13:02:32

I have a novel idea.... In my understanding of this, the (people) are the ones having the problem ie. cant pay thier loans, cant afford a new car, etc. Why doesnt the gov. give this money to the people (and understand im not being a smart a** about this) but it just seems to me that this is the reason for all this mess in the first place is that the people just dont have the money .. i mean we all need to live, eat, drive, clothe ourselves, health care and the money is just not there... so take the 700 B bail out, that is only going to save a few companys for a little bit, give it to the people and let them pay off thier loans, houses, cars... or god forbid buy new ones and spread the wealth around a little and it could save a lot, instead of a little!
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Re: We should increase taxes to fix the system!

Unread postby dream16 » Sun 30 Nov 2008, 13:14:44

oh and before anyone has a chance to say it .. what about the stimulus package.. that was a joke, the amount they sent to everyone was good for a couple of bills and some groceries, if that.
I am talking about money. I never got to see any of the stimulus package, why, cause i owed taxes. So it just went right back in the gov. pocket, and i still had to pay more taxes. They need to help the people ... real help.
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Re: We should increase taxes to fix the system!

Unread postby Pretorian » Sun 30 Nov 2008, 13:18:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'I') never understood why 50% of the population were Liberals.
Maybe they actually believed that lie when politicians say they're going to tax the rich and give it to the poor!
*dies of laughter*


Well, that's actually the way state worked since quite awhile. The state exist to protect the rich from the poor, and it can be done in many ways, including paying the [s]poor [/s] lumpenproletariaten enough so they prefer collect it to prison sentence or death.
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Re: We should increase taxes to fix the system!

Unread postby nudibranch » Sun 30 Nov 2008, 14:19:32

The government is not there to help the people.
It is there to make it look like it is helping the people, while the rich clean the coffers.

Big difference.

If you had a billion dollar a year scam, how much would YOU spend to keep the scam running?
Nothing will change, too much money against it.
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Re: We should increase taxes to fix the system!

Unread postby dream16 » Sun 30 Nov 2008, 15:03:04

True that and trust me I understand ... but I still stand by my ideals and it would fix it ... with the exception of the few who would think they were rich and quit thier jobs and screw the whole thing up ... I still say the majority of the people would use the money to better them selves and get the rest of the world out of hock at the same time. Oh and BTW f**k the govt.
I am so tired of living by thier rules I could just scream. Some good, mostly bad politicians saying what I can and cant do. Blah. And then reaping the rewards of our money.. why do they get provided with health care that our money provides while the rest of us do with out ins. and are in hock up to our eyeballs......
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Re: We should increase taxes to fix the system!

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 30 Nov 2008, 17:18:59

Dream16, what do you want to do that you've been prevented from doing by a politician? I've never experienced that myself, I've always done what I wanted, pretty much limited only by my own imagination and energy, sometimes somewhat limited by money.

Mind you, I don't expect to be supported or encouraged by politicians, but being ignored is different from someone actively obstructing you.
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Re: We should increase taxes to fix the system!

Unread postby dream16 » Sun 30 Nov 2008, 19:07:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'D')ream16, what do you want to do that you've been prevented from doing by a politician? I've never experienced that myself, I've always done what I wanted, pretty much limited only by my own imagination and energy, sometimes somewhat limited by money.
Mind you, I don't expect to be supported or encouraged by politicians, but being ignored is different from someone actively obstructing you.

Oh Puhlease.... we as a people are obstructed with each and every step we take.. Lets take driving a car for instance, that is simple enough, but in order to own a vehicle you must buy it and pay taxes, then register it yearly, have it inspected yearly.. oh and the fun one you must have ins. monthly, dont forget to renew your drivers licence and then you can drive. What if you have children? You have to provide individual age appropriate seating.
If we all had horses and wagons they would find away to screw that up too. Its not enough to just pay for anything and its your anymore .. Hell you will never really own anything and be able to use it for yourself without the gov. stepping in and telling you something or finding a way to charge you for it multiple multiple times. If you own a home it is never truly yours, taxes take care of that! Miss a few and you will find out! Make improvements ? out of the question! you do and your taxes go up.

Oh i know i will get a profession and make more money... Nah if i do they will charge me yearly to keep my license, but not before they make me pay someone else for continuing education classes for credits to be able to be relicensed for the year! Blahl.
Dont tell me that B.S
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Re: We should increase taxes to fix the system!

Unread postby TommyJefferson » Mon 01 Dec 2008, 11:14:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dream16', '.').you will never really own anything and be able to use it for yourself without the gov. stepping in...


You are beginning to realize that you don't own yourself.

You are livestock to be skimmed from.

In America our stalls are larger than those of the livestock in China. This is because American farmers learned earlier that bigger stalls equal more productivity.
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Re: We should increase taxes to fix the system!

Unread postby Pretorian » Mon 01 Dec 2008, 12:49:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', '
')In America our stalls are larger than those of the livestock in China. This is because American farmers learned earlier that bigger stalls equal more productivity.

Is it a suggestion that Americans are working better than Chinese?
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Re: We should increase taxes to fix the system!

Unread postby dream16 » Mon 01 Dec 2008, 13:09:03

You are beginning to realize that you don't own yourself.


NO not beginnig ... have realized this for sometime, just voicing now.
Over worked under paid, over taxed, blah. All we will ever be are slaves that answer to the man. Im so tired of this. And this idiot thinks taxes are the answer... duh... Ok you go out and slave yourself to pay for thier niceitys while you and your family continue to do without and go hungry..
I take that back we are worse than slaves at least slaves are provided with food and shelter... If we cant work hard enough to satisfy the man and make our taxes he just comes in and takes whatever will make him happy and leaves us on the street in worse shape than we started. The answer to that is more taxes so we can put you on welfare till you can pay us again, or more taxes so we can put you in jail while you think about how you are going to pay us when you get out! Social security numbers are the mark of the beast... the beast is the man.
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Taxes are the reason for the debt problem?

Unread postby 3aidlillahi » Tue 02 Dec 2008, 10:00:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his revolves around the theory by two Professors, Franco Modigliani, Merton Miller, commonly known as the Miller-Modigliani theorem (M&M!) who won a Noble Prize for this. In fact, the theory itself is quite simple, and as we are learn several times in academics, many of the Noble Prize winners haven’t come up with ground-breaking new research, but rather summarized/clarified/put-in-a-nutshell what was already obvious, i.e. be able to explain a phenomena that everyone kind of already knew but couldn’t quite explain before!

Here’s what M&M proposed:

In the absence of taxes, bankruptcy costs, and asymmetric information, and in an efficient market, the value of a firm is unaffected by how that firm is financed. It does not matter if the firm’s capital is raised by issuing stock or selling debt. It does not matter what the firm’s dividend policy is. Therefore, the Modigliani-Miller theorem is also often called the capital structure irrelevance principle. [Wiki]

The point? Debt is irrelevant. In other words, debt, by itself does not create value. In fact, an individual could mimic a company’s debt structure and make the company’s decision irrelevant.

So, let’s say there is a company A that has 20% of debt in its capital structure (i.e. how the company is financed) with the balance 80% being equity (shares, etc.). There is another debt-free company B, with exactly the same operating performance as A (i.e. they both generate the same profits and have the same assets). An individual could then use 80% of his money to buy shares of company A, and borrow 20% from the bank, and essentially mimic company A (assume that interest rate is same for individual and company). So, in essence, B cannot differentiate itself from A by simply borrowing, because an individual investor could do the same. And then in a perfect market, where everything is known about A and B, arbitrage will prevent one company from being valued higher than the other. Miller said it best:

“Think of the firm as a gigantic tub of whole milk. The farmer can sell the whole milk as it is. Or he can separate out the cream, and sell it at a considerably higher price than the whole milk would bring.” He continues, “The Modigliani-Miller proposition says that if there were no costs of separation, (and, of course, no government dairy support program), the cream plus the skim milk would bring the same price as the whole milk.” The essence of the argument is that increasing the amount of debt (cream) lowers the value of outstanding equity (skim milk) – selling off safe cash flows to debt-holders leaves the firm with more lower valued equity, keeping the total value of the firm unchanged. Put differently, any gain from using more of what might seem to be cheaper debt is offset by the higher cost of now riskier equity. Hence, given a fixed amount of total capital, the allocation of capital between debt and equity is irrelevant because the weighted average of the two costs of capital to the firm is the same for all possible combinations of the two.


Muslimmatters.org

I know little about this theory (that won the Noble Prize) but I found this analysis interesting given our problem with debt.

Now I don't mean that taxes alone are the problem for debt but that they are one that can most easily be taken care of where an efficient market, bankruptcy costs and others can not (to my knowledge).

It'll be interesting to see how well this theory holds in places like Dubai which are devoid of taxes.
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