[threadbear]

Wow, POAlex and MadScientist, Fundamentalist and Darwinist fundamentalists, together at last.

So let's just clarify for all of the deformed fruitflies banging away at their keyboards...who is it that's going to survive? The Nazis or the meek? I've got good money on neither.

[MadScientist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '
')So people who experience disaster and do not want to repeat it are "weak"?

[wisconsin_cur]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MadScientist', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '
')So people who experience disaster and do not want to repeat it are "weak"?

[MadScientist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '.')..who is it that's going to survive?

[patience]

I've been temprarily trapped in a forest fire I was helping fight, got a leg stuck in a flood current under our own bridge clearing debris, rolled a car over at 90+ MPH, been around while my wife battled cancer and multiple sclerosis, lost for a short time in a blizzard, defended our home from a goofball stalking my wife, and survived personal attack. And a couple other things that are better left unsaid. As someone said here, I survived mostly by chance. Certain character traits help, of course, but chance is the majority.

Am I stronger for it? I really don't know, but probably. I know I am more aware of dangers, and better prepared for them. And I know for certain to avoid them if at all possible.

I agree that we have nurtured the weak in our society, and they stand less of a chance because of it.

[wisconsin_cur]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('patience', 'I')'ve been temprarily trapped in a forest fire I was helping fight, got a leg stuck in a flood current under our own bridge clearing debris, rolled a car over at 90+ MPH, been around while my wife battled cancer and multiple sclerosis, lost for a short time in a blizzard, defended our home from a goofball stalking my wife, and survived personal attack. And a couple other things that are better left unsaid. As someone said here, I survived mostly by chance. Certain character traits help, of course, but chance is the majority.

Am I stronger for it? I really don't know, but probably. I know I am more aware of dangers, and better prepared for them. And I know for certain to avoid them if at all possible.

I agree that we have nurtured the weak in our society, and they stand less of a chance because of it.

[wisconsin_cur]

It occurs to me that I might need to be a little less coy myself.

If we assume that people are psycho-somatic beings (ie we are both mind and body) then while survival might make the mind "stronger" it can, at the same time, leave the body acutely weaker. Polio might do this or an injury that never fully heals. We cannot assess the benefit to the mind without also accounting for the cost to the body... we are, after all, both.

If we say that the benefit to the mind always outweighs the cost to the body, well that seems just a little silly to me... as would it be silly to say that there is never a cost to the body.

So if subject A, knowing the costs and benefits of their suffering says, "What I gained was not worth the cost." Who are we to judge? We have not lived their life. We do not know their ongoing pain (mental or physical).

Likewise if subject B, also knowing the costs and benefits of their own suffering says "What I gained was worth the cost." we cannot do anything but take their word for it.

Where we get into trouble is when we take our own story, "It was worth it" or "It was not worth it" and universalize them to "It is always worth it" or "It is never worth it." Then we are too busy propagating a dogma to listen to one another.

Chance plays as much into the cost/benefit of suffering as much as it does to survival. The prepared mind does have a better chance of survival and it may even have a better chance at making something positive out of suffering... but it still boils down to chance.

[MadScientist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '
')So they were weak before the disaster but are stronger after wards. Are they... "unappreciative"? What if they really are weaker after wards? maimed mentally, physically or what not? Are they always stronger on the inside?

[MadScientist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('patience', 'C')ertain character traits help, of course, but chance is the majority.
Am I stronger for it? I really don't know, but probably. I know I am more aware of dangers, and better prepared for them. And I know for certain to avoid them if at all possible.

[SILENTTODD]

You forgot the part where it may Kill You first!

[MadScientist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SILENTTODD', 'Y')ou forgot the part where it may Kill You first!

[ReverseEngineer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MadScientist', 'I')n psychology, this phenomenon is refereed as human resilience. Resiliency is the ability of an individual to face painful events or adversities and grow and mature as a result of them. This psychological quality was "discovered" when researchers observed children, who despite having grown dysfunctional family environments, suffered physical and psychological abuse, and poverty, they were able to overcome these adverse conditions and become “normal” and productive and relatively well adjust adults

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MadScientist', '
')No Ludi, my whole point in this entire thread is that its gonna get "that bad" and every bit of adversity we can get before that happens is going to help us get through it better.

[MadScientist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReverseEngineer', '
')By this logic, in order to make our children stronger and better able to face the hard times ahead, we should physically and psychologically abuse them. While you might make a case for this being true, its hardly a life worth living, now is it?

[wisconsin_cur]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')So there is no "moral" judgment. Only the epiphany that some people are pray and others are... survivors? predators (since we contained our own predators by killing them)?

Am I understanding correctly?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MadScientist', '
')You seem determined to make this a "me" issue..

[Cloud9]

Fanatics suck the air out of a room. Whether their motivation is religious or political, they all to a man demand that we suspend rational thinking and accept their paradigm on faith. Faith begins where reason ends. Faith by its very nature is irrational. Fanatics are nothing without their followers. I can’t stand to be around them. Left alone, they are nothing more than raged men ranting on a street corner.

The progressives of the 19th century advanced an agenda that flowered in the 20th century based on the premise that all problems are political. It was asserted that disparities in wealth and education could be eradicated by political action. The notion of the nanny state was advanced. The idea took hold to greater or lesser extents all over the world. It manifested itself of communism and fascism. Taken to the extreme both systems failed.

Katrina and now Gustav may serve to reinforce the lesson that some things are beyond the scope of government. Under certain conditions, subsidies, entitlement programs and five year plans fall apart. The lesson learned by the observant is that these conditions happen all too often. The ultimate responsibility for the survival of the species rests on the individual. The prudent prepare. The rest perish.

[POAlex]

Cloud9,

Do you really think its a good idea with our world falling apart to forsake God and replace Him with the wisdom of man?

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness." (1 Corinthians 3:19)

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." (2 Chronicles 7:14)

Not a good idea.

Alex

[Ludi]

Alex, you seem to be saying that if we pray to God and turn away from wickedness, we will not be stricken with disaster. Is that what you're actually saying, that our problems will be solved by prayer to God?

Just curious about your attitude, and if you think prayer to God is the best method of preparing for potential hard times, perhaps to the exclusion of other actions.

[POAlex]

That's a very good question, Ludi.

The verse was directed at the Jewish people in the Old Testament but it also has a profound significance in our own lives. Cloud9's suggestion would encourage people to trust in man's wisdom and turn their backs completely on God, at a time when things are falling apart.

Here, this verse has more of a personal application.

Let me share my personal example. I lived a life of rebellion and sin until God woke me up and showed me I wasn't right with Him. My rebellion put the Son of God on a cross, so I could be saved. When I turned back to God, humbled myself in repentance and called on Jesus to save me - He did. I was saved, sealed and so to speak, my land started to heal.

It'll bring people back to where we were created to be - in a right relationship with God our Father.

Alex