[Roccland]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'R')E: not stealing my stuff and shooting my children:
That would be good, right? Maybe that is why I spend so much time here trying to get folks thinking about the real problems instead of raging about the symptoms?

[halcyon]

Interesting discussion. Let me see if I get this straight?

Americans live beyond their means and do into spiraling debt. They enjoy the ride while this happens and happily proclaim "USA is the best thing since sliced bread" and whatnot Then they have to start paying back.
Paying back sucks. So, why not just default, declare personal bankruptcy or just stop paying and see what happens?
Maybe somebody else will pay my bills and debt? Why should I pay for the debt that I created?
etc.

I'm sorry if that's a mis-characterisation, but that's what it looks like to me.

We had a really bad depression in my country almost 20 years ago. People went into spiraling debt, lost their businesses, homes, cars, savings, everything. Suicide rates went through the roof.

Many of those who went into bad debt have now paid back everything with interest after almost 20 years. No slack, no bankruptcy plans, no hand-outs. Just working hard, living really frugally and paying back as much as possible.

Are they happy about their experience during that time? No, they see it as the darkest time they ever lived through.

Are they happy it's now over and do they feel like they are smarter people because of it? Yes. More than anything else, almost everyone is really happy that they can look themselves in the mirror and feel good about themselves. They've cleaned up their own mess. You know, like responsible adults do.

Personally I don't hold it in very high probability that Americans will do the same. Letting somebody else pay appears to be so much more fun...

And if it comes to that, it'll be interesting to see if the rest of the world can and is willing to float USA and for how much longer.

If USA was a smaller country with less nukes and no position in security council (etc), nobody would give a damn. Economists would argue on what kind of World Bank program USA should be put under, and that's it. However, now that it is USA, somehow the rules change. Funny that.

[Roccland]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('halcyon', '
')
They've cleaned up their own mess. You know, like responsible adults do.

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('halcyon', 'I')nteresting discussion. Let me see if I get this straight?
Americans live beyond their means and do into spiraling debt. They enjoy the ride while this happens and happily proclaim "USA is the best thing since sliced bread" and whatnot Then they have to start paying back. Paying back sucks. So, why not just default, declare personal bankruptcy or just stop paying and see what happens?
Maybe somebody else will pay my bills and debt? Why should I pay for the debt that I created? etc.
I'm sorry if that's a mis-characterisation, but that's what it looks like to me. -snip- If USA was a smaller country with less nukes and no position in security council (etc), nobody would give a damn. Economists would argue on what kind of World Bank program USA should be put under, and that's it. However, now that it is USA, somehow the rules change. Funny that.

[sittinguy]

This thread is making me mad!
I work/worked my ass off to pay back all my CC debt in the last few years. last year alone I payed around 17k in debt. I am now at a few hundred.

But you know what SUCKS is?? I'm the loser. There is no prize for me, but there is a big prize for those losers that think they can default. THEY GET TO KEEP ALL THE STUFF FOR FREE.

Maybe my prize is pride though. I can hold my head high and tell my story and be proud.
All you defaulters don't be mad when your on the side of the road one day picking up garbage trying to pay off your depts, and I nail you in head with a chicken nugget

[roccman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sittinguy', 'T')his thread is making me mad! I work/worked my ass off to pay back all my CC debt in the last few years. last year alone I payed around 17k in debt. I am now at a few hundred.
But you know what SUCKS is?? I'm the loser. There is no prize for me, but there is a big prize for those losers that think they can default. THEY GET TO KEEP ALL THE STUFF FOR FREE.
Maybe my prize is pride though. I can hold my head high and tell my story and be proud. All you defaulters don't be mad when your on the side of the road one day picking up garbage trying to pay off your depts, and I nail you in head with a chicken nugget

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his thread is making me mad! I work/worked my ass off to pay back all my CC debt in the last few years. last year alone I payed around 17k in debt. I am now at a few hundred. But you know what SUCKS is?? I'm the loser. There is no prize for me, but there is a big prize for those losers that think they can default. THEY GET TO KEEP ALL THE STUFF FOR FREE.
Maybe my prize is pride though. I can hold my head high and tell my story and be proud. All you defaulters don't be mad when your on the side of the road one day picking up garbage trying to pay off your depts, and I nail you in head with a chicken nugget

[nobodypanic]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', ' ')It was a mistake in the first place to assume the common man could handle credit responsibly.

[sittinguy]

People might handle thier debt a little better if the consequences were higher. Bankruptcy is WAY to easy. Years back a freind filed, he was only in his 20s, And he boosted how he purchased a $2000 set of golf clubs the day before he filed. For 1 he was in his 20s, there should be no way in hell a 20 year old should be allowed to file. He's got plenty of time to work and pay down till he is dead.

People file more than once,,,,,,,,WHAT?
On your third bankruptcy,, you need to go to jail. You have a problem.

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sittinguy', 'P')eople might handle thier debt a little better if the consequences were higher. Bankruptcy is WAY to easy. Years back a freind filed, he was only in his 20s, And he boosted how he purchased a $2000 set of golf clubs the day before he filed. For 1 he was in his 20s, there should be no way in hell a 20 year old should be allowed to file. He's got plenty of time to work and pay down till he is dead.

People file more than once,,,,,,,,WHAT?
On your third bankruptcy,, you need to go to jail. You have a problem.

[nobodypanic]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sittinguy', ' ')
People file more than once,,,,,,,,WHAT?
On your third bankruptcy,, you need to go to jail. You have a problem.

[Roccland]

Hmmmm...a county not paying their debt...is that a good thing?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ug. 26 (Bloomberg) -- Jefferson County, Alabama, officials told their lawyers to prepare a bankruptcy filing should the county be unable to reach an agreement with creditors over $3.2 billion of bonds whose interest rates have soared.

The Jefferson County Commission today voted to have the law firm Bradley, Arant, Rose and White LLP make plans to file for bankruptcy should no agreement be reached with JPMorgan Chase & Co. and other creditors to restructure its debts.

The county's current agreement with creditors will expire on Aug. 29 because a special session of the Legislature won't be called to consider the latest plan for ending the crisis. Commission President Bettye Fine Collins said Governor Bob Riley has agreed to help the county negotiate with Wall Street on a deal to save it from bankruptcy.

``In a perfect world, we would work out a plan that would be the equivalent of bankruptcy without filing for bankruptcy,'' said Commissioner Jim Carns, Republican. ``If we can't get an agreement, then our only alternative would be to file.''

Should the county renege on the debts, it would be the largest municipal bond default in U.S. history, outstripping the Washington Public Power Supply System's $2.25 billion default in 1983 of revenue bonds sold for nuclear plants. It may also saddle investors, insurers Syncora Guarantee Inc., formerly XL Capital Assurance Inc., and Financial Guaranty Insurance Co., as well as banks such as JPMorgan, with hundreds of millions in losses"

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', '@')Roccland
My father gave me 3 truths to live by and so far in my 51 years on the planet, I've tried to live up to them:
1) When you give a man your word, you keep it no matter what the cost to you.

.

[AlexdeLarge]

Consequences?

Debtors' prison
In the United Kingdom, the Debtors Act of 1869 abolished imprisonment for debt, although debtors who had the means to pay their debt but did not do so, could still be incarcerated for up to six weeks.

Debtors' prisons varied in the amount of freedom they allowed the debtor. With a little money, a debtor could pay for some freedoms; some allowed inmates to conduct business and receive visitors; others (for example, the Fleet and King's Bench Prisons) even allowed inmates to live a short distance outside the prison--a practice known as the 'Liberty of the Rules'-and the Fleet even tolerated clandestine 'Fleet Marriages'.

The father of the English author Charles Dickens was sent to one of these prisons (Marshalsea Prison), which were often described in Dickens' novels.

Debtors' prison






I think the Lenders should go to jail first!

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nobodypanic', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', ' ')It was a mistake in the first place to assume the common man could handle credit responsibly.

[Roccland]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '
')
I know this is a US-centric audience, but as an outsider looking in it is hard to fathom just how out of touch Americans are with reality? When it catches up to them it is going to be a real rude awakening!

[MrBill]

I said individuals, corporations and nations. Debt forgiveness is just another cop-out that encourages reckless behavior.

As we are forced to respect sovereign states inalienable right to govern themselves it is wholly unacceptable to say after the fact that this or that leader had no right to spend money as that nation saw fit at the time. That includes their right to build nuclear arms or buy military hardware instead of investing in their own basic infrastructure and domestic development. So be it. If they blow the money on guns and palaces then why should taxpayers in mostly western and developed countries have to forgive their debt? Its just armchair liberalism at its hypocritcal worst. I can hardly wait until the hard economic realities of post peak oil resource depletion put an end to such silly arguments.

And, yes, Northern Rock had to be rescued in order to avoid systemic collapse. If governments did not serve any useful purpose then they would be an expensive waste of money without any public good, wouldn't they? But neither does the UK, nor the rest of the world by the way, consume two-thirds of the world's accumulated savings. The USA does. Paying back that debt through higher taxes; lower, slower growth; higher inflation; a depreciated US dollar; lower living standards; and debt default (that will result in even higher interest rates) will no doubt suck. Better you than me!

Got shovel? ; - ))

[Roccland]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', ' ') I can hardly wait until the hard economic realities of post peak oil resource depletion put an end to such silly arguments.

[MrBill]

A garage and a nail? Luxury! When I was young we were lucky if we got a tarp and a piece of string to hang our rusty spoon on. We couldn't afford a real shovel. And a hole? We used to dream we could have our own hole. We had to make due with sharing a drainage channel with ten other families. And that were a five mile walk from our home. I say home, but really it was two-pieces of plywood and a torn jacket for a door. Mind you we were lucky to have a roof over our heads. Especially when winter lasted 9-months and it was dark most days. Tell folks what a luxury it is to have a shovel on a nail in the garage these days and they all think it is a right and not a privilege.

[Roccland]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', ' ') Tell folks today what a luxury it is to have a shovel on a nail in the garage these days and they all think it is a right and not a privilege.