[Homesteader]

Good Lord! Bob asked an honest sincere question. How 'bout the thread not get derailed with ideological crapola and give him some honest and sincere input?

Bob,

There are others on the board that have a lot of expertise in this area and given time some of them will likely share their thoughts.

One thing I would suggest you add is support for localizing energy generation, perhaps in the form of co-ops. As you probably know already electrical transmission loss can be 20-25%. The closer to the end user the power is generated the better.

They should definitely put their heads together with Mr. Pickens.

An interesting thread was started today by joelcolorado regarding methane generation. This may be a little far-out at the moment but has some interesting applications with the right R & D at a micro and local level.

Cheers.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Homesteader', 'G')ood Lord! Bob asked an honest sincere question. How 'bout the thread not get derailed with ideological crapola and give him some honest and sincere input?

[BobWise32952]

OK, Mr. Dog, I understand where you're coming from. I usually think of the Sun's input as free, whether beaming down on me or stored in a layer of oil-bearing rock. And in my myopic view of extractive or industrial processes, I can account for all the local energy flows, including those lost to waste heat per the 2nd law, but I know no way of accounting for changes to the entire system that result from the existence of a given process. From the Gods-eye viewpoint, your comments are fully justified. (Any suggestions for an earthbound political platform?)

[Homesteader]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Homesteader', 'G')ood Lord! Bob asked an honest sincere question. How 'bout the thread not get derailed with ideological crapola and give him some honest and sincere input?

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Homesteader', '
')Bob is putting time and effort into this process, we should respect that.

Your stance has zero chance of a meaningful contribution being heard.

[Homesteader]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Homesteader', '
')Bob is putting time and effort into this process, we should respect that.

Your stance has zero chance of a meaningful contribution being heard.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Homesteader', '
')My view on politics is like yours, maybe even more so. However, if somebody wants some different eyes looking at a proposal that has a chance, however slight, of making a difference I'll give it my best shot.

cheers

[Homesteader]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Homesteader', '
')My view on politics is like yours, maybe even more so. However, if somebody wants some different eyes looking at a proposal that has a chance, however slight, of making a difference I'll give it my best shot.

cheers

[BobWise32952]

Thanks, Homesteader, for your positive remarks, and Plantagenet, for the points of info on Dem & Obama support for the ethanol subsidy. I should have known, since I work with the local party, but don't follow the political news as closely as I should. Still, I have no problem going in Tuesday night and recommending the opposite.

[PenultimateManStanding]

Wow, Bob, you've been a member here for over three years and have 9 posts. And then you have the audacity to request replies! Just kidding, good luck in the sandbox.

[darwinsdog]

Bob concedes the point. That's more honest than Nate Higgins & his ilk over on TOD. I respect honesty. No, I don't have any real world suggestions for improvement. If I did, I wouldn't have pointed out the fatal insufficiencies of EROEI analysis: to whit: no one can identify, let alone agree on, what inputs are pertinent nor how to quantify them. I'm more or less a Democrat, but if you base your energy platform on nonsense, then you've lost me.

[BobWise32952]

Anyone who thought I agreed above that EROEI analysis was nonsense should read more carefully.

[phaster]

with all the talk of energy policy and energy independence, and both major party candidates saying the other party's energy policy is the wrong track, just thought I'd point out that the republican position of drilling our way out of the so called high energy costs felt by many americans at the pump is not a solution because any republican position does nothing to limit the demand side of the equation...

Likewise the general point of view of the democratic party is ya can find a solution to high gas/oil prices by working on conservation (i.e. the demand side of the equation), while ignoring the supply side of the equation.

IMHO the USA will not have a workable energy policy and will not achieve energy independence, until the american public and politicians realize two basic points...

The first basic point is there are two sides of the energy equation one being the demand side and the other being the supply side and any policy needs to address this reality.

The second basic point is, cheap energy has its unintended costs on society and the environment. If the goal is to lessen energy dependence on say oill from the middle east, then the general public has to make some kind of ecomomic sacrifice to achieve that goal and "political leaders" have to have the balls to actually tell the american public that so called american dream (of a house in the burbs, driving a big old car not just an SUV, and shopping at a mall for lots of consumer goods, etc.) is not economically or environmentally sustainable....

[Graeme]

U.S. candidates clash over energy policy

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')nergy politics dominated the race for the White House as Barack Obama and John McCain escalated a series of increasingly bitter attacks Monday over how to ease American dependence on oil.

After days of Republican attack ads that compared him to Britney Spears and Moses, Obama celebrated his 47th birthday by releasing his own television spot that accused McCain of being "in the pocket" of Big Oil. The renewed attack came as Obama unveiled his energy plan to combat the U.S. "addiction" to foreign oil, "one of the most dangerous and urgent threats" his country has ever faced.

McCain campaign spokesman Tucker Bounds replied that Obama's ad "shows his celebrity is matched only by his hypocrisy" because the Illinois Democrat has also received $400,000 in campaign contributions from oil companies.

In recent days, as polls show McCain pulling even with Obama, lifting the ban on offshore drilling to ease rising fuel prices that are hurting American families has emerged as the hot topic.

McCain favours drilling and renewed accusations that Obama and the Democratic-controlled Congress are stonewalling its return.

[lawnchair]

I was wondering when it would happen, but energy is the hottest "issue" this year.

It should be noted, since the article didn't, that McCain was opposed to this very same offshore drilling (initially restricted by Reagan and Bush I) for many years, including through March of this year (seeking primary votes in Florida and California).

Obama has suggested a willingness to compromise on some drilling if he can use it as a bargaining chip for other things (alternative energy pork) he wants.

Tapping the last drops of US conventional oil might help the happy-motoring eternal-growth party last another 2 years. It does nothing for the inevitable hangover.

[heroineworshipper]

Wasn't yesterday Ubama's father's birthday? And the day before was his best friend's aunt's birthday. Tomorrow is his cat's birthday. Best of all, next time he clips his nails, we all get a free ride on SpaceShip 2. The Ubama revolution just keeps getting better & better.

[Graeme]

No Hope for a Sensible Energy Policy

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')HERE IS A REASON I chose "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here" as the subtitle of the study of energy policy I just completed under the auspices of the Washington-based Hudson Institute. That reason: decades of listening to politician leaders of both of our parties promising "energy independence," and an end to America's "oil addiction." Such promises must be music to the ears of domestic environmental groups and our foreign friends who feel that our cars are too big, our houses either over-heated or over-air-conditioned, and our consumption of fossil fuels the source of the global warming and its cataclysmic consequences predicted by failed presidential candidate and successful pursuer of a Nobel Prize, Al Gore.

I have bad news for all those who think that the retirement of George W. Bush will somehow initiate a golden--or green--age in America. It won't. Just take a close look at the promises being made by the two men who have now been formally nominated as their parties' standard bearers in the fight to control the White House.

[ROCKMAN]

An excellent link G. Thanks. And as depressing as always to hear the current state of the thought processes of our political leadership. The article does a fairly good job of defining the problem with most of the "fixes": scalability. I've become very irritated with all the proposals thown out that do not include the full cycle economic costs along with a doable time table. I can't recall how many times I've sat in the gallery here and at TOD and watch debates on one fix or the other. Seldom does anyone bother to point out the full cost, realistic timing and social ramifications of such fantasies.

[DomusAlbion]

This situation and soon to be crisis is the direct result of our form of government or in this case non-government. Democracy has failed miserably, especially in the USA, to address long term solutions to current and future problems. Everything is an attempt at a quick fix, a Band-Aid to some how satisfy the voters that “our party” is doing something when all the time they are merely seeking political advantage over the “evil others”. The politicians pander to lowest, selfish desires of the people instead of really leading and doing what is necessary for the long term health of the nation and the world.

The people need to shut up, sit down and be reeducated as to what is coming and what is possible. The US should be spending trillions, not billions to revamp the energy and industrial infrastructure of the nation so that we can again produce what we need and the people need to learn to need less. It would be better for all if a true leader would take charge and help teach the people than to let cruel Nature be the teacher.

Unfortunately we’re all doomed to be the pupils of Nature. There truly is no hope.

[/rant off]

[burtonridr]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DomusAlbion', '
')Unfortunately we’re all doomed to be the pupils of Nature. There truly is no hope.

[/rant off]