[Narz]

This thread was triggered by Ludi's comments on another thread (she mentioned that people really do know about the energy & ecological perils we face), as well as various thoughts & conversations I've had over the years.

What my paradoxical sounding query is asking is - Do people who "don't know" (the details) about Peak Oil, about the possibility that we're not heading towards a George Jetson future, about our ecological situation, etc. really "know" (intuitively understand)?

Since we can't really, truly understand another besides ourselves, I'll speak for me.

As a kid I did get a sense that there were many things wrong with the world but I didn't know how to articulate them or have anyone to articulate them to. I remember wondering what all the ingrediant names to my microwaved canned pasta were. I remember feeling it was strange that nobody seemed to make anything (I went thru a phase where I asked where everything was from but quickly quit after getting mostly vague answers like "a factory" or "china). I naturally hated waste & enjoyed reusing things & finding things (my favorite childhood piece of furniture was a metal bedside table I found while on a walk with my mother on garbage day).

But cultural indoctrination is strong & I didn't think about these issues daily or even monthly for most of my life (though my vague feelings remained under the surface).

As for peak oil I remember learning that fossil fuels were nonrenewable in school but this disconnected sound bite didn't have much of an effect on me because I'd long since given up trying to understand how electricity worked & the global economy functioned (mainly due to vague answers or, more often, none at all).

I was lucky. For all my parents flaws my mother read to me & I didn't watch much TV (plus I got about 6 months of partial breastfeeding) so I probably got somewhat of a better start than most. Looking around at parents & children in parks & supermarkets I wonder if they've thought about these issues &/or have any "intuitive" feelings about them. I knew a guy from Florida who believed the world (managed better) could hold 100 billion or so humans, he also had some pretty out there religious ideas that he must've known on some level were ridiculous (a weird version of Creationism really). I wonder whether he really believed in his heart those things though or whether it was just some sort of way to avoid accepting the full measure of what he really thought would happen.

As for me, it's hard to know what's really real. Everyday life on the street (and in parking lots, stores, places of business) and discussion here are in such sharp contrast sometimes I marvel at it. I do this especially when I watch TV but this is rare. It's amazing how the power of multimedia and social proof (other people) shape people's perceptions of normal. Scary really. This was very apparent at the hospital where my girlfriend gave birth. She originally wanted a natural birth but the midwives claimed she "risked out" (after taking her money) so she ended up there. So many of her requests got weird looks simply because 99.9% of the population simply "go with the flow".

I feel like I'm not articulating myself as well as I'd like but anyway, roll with the thread however you like. I'm curious as to if other people have thought about this much.

[coyote]

If you mean subconsciously, I don't know. But on the surface I think most people are about as out of the loop as they could be. Many people think the recent runup of oil prices has been all about speculation - I've heard that firm opinion expressed many times by people I know, and on the radio - just this morning in fact. Many more people don't even know that oil is a finite resource, and in fact have never thought about it at all.

I do think there is a growing feeling out there that something is wrong. But most people still haven't bothered to find out what it is. Just my experience.

[Ludi]

Hmm,did I say that? I think I might have actually said it almost seems like being willfully ignorant if they don't know the impact humans are having on the planet. But I was corrected - smart people were not able to find out about this because the information was hidden from them, apparently.



I agree it is extremely difficult to know what is "really real." I struggle with it daily.

[JPL]

Minor background in Mining Engineering & Geology & I know there were at least 300 undergraduates back in the class of '84 that know all about oil depletion & when it was going to run out because we did all the stuff back then with graphs & everything.

I remember my lecturer pointing with a cynical grin at the predicted depletion curves and saying 'Of course, without that (oil) you won't get the rest of this (the other stuff) out of the ground anyhow. But you're all clever chaps, I'm sure you'll figure a way out of it by then.'

People (engineers & geologists) know all this crap - they have for a long time. But then it's a very cynical industry. Oh, what fun we have ahead...

JP

[Madpaddy]

Narz,

I believe that people who don't know really do know deep down.

Similarly, people who do know, in many cases refuse to accept.

Personally, I've gone way past the point of debate.

I know that the game is up. I believe that the next 60 months will see TEOTWAWKI.

I suppose, I've been a bit of a plonker the last year or so on PO but IMO 99% of threads are pure arse. A thread with the title $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ir Richard Branson unveils Virgin's spaceship

[Farknight]

Bottom line is that Amerikans have devolved from a hardy nation of pioneers who made do in extreme conditions, no help from the government and somehow survived to thrive into today's consumer herd of "me, me, me, mine, mine" suburbanites/urbanites.

We are in the midst of a generation or two of folks that have been spoon fed by the richest empire ever known to planet earth bar none. That is unraveling and yes, I believe many people are feeling a wee bit weird as the pablum on HGTV, the N, HBO or whatever starts to ring false. Our ancestors (remote and a few generations back) worked dam hard to build up the US and we are still living on that massive capital to this very day. However, we squander it massively both at the personal and national political level. Daily we see our power diminish.

Our belief systems have morphed into far this and far that cults of death and exclusion, based on mystical books actually decided upon by Councils of Bishops who controlled highly profitable abbeys and voted to contain the masses through almighty power lest privilege be lost for the few. In other realms, deity has been channeled into the very real political anger of poverty and exclusion our empire's sucking of global resources hath cast on the everyman of the third world. Terrorism is the result and it has brought us to our knees to the absurd point that now we suspect everyone and strip search grandmas who look a bit odd to a $13 buck an hour TSA goon.

Our paradigm is shifting and we all basically know that the national guvment has no clue and that the club of wealth that runs it basically sees the masses as cannon fodder and potential gardeners. Many people revel in the sheer thrill of idiocy and aspiring to the lowest common denominator, a way to dumb down what we see and know. Others, prepare for the worst or perhaps strive to hitch their wagon to the uber .5% that can buy a Johhny Depp Doomstead.

In short, 25 odd percent of the world's oil and resources cannot continue to flow here to 4% of the population. Someone, in fact many someones, must lose invariably in this equation. We are currently experiencing the very beginning pangs of the "Great Correction". It will have massive impact over time on our lives and those that see it for what it is might be able to at least survive if not somewhat thrive, albeit in a new paradigm of living. But, let's face it, man typically does changes on this scale rather badly, with bloodshed, violence, plague, disease and starvation. Why would this impending future be somehow different? I desperately wish someone can show how clearly we overcome this situation and move beyond to a more peaceful and blissful planet without massive suffering.

[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Madpaddy', '
')
I know that the game is up. I believe that the next 60 months will see TEOTWAWKI.

[Madpaddy]

JPL,

TEOTWAWKI doesn't mean zombie hordes, nuclear war and trench warfare in central europe against the Chinese.

I do believe, it will mean rationing of resources, poverty, hunger and civil unrest.

[skippyreef]

I think that people have a talent for self disilluisionment and denial of the truth. This is the reason that people are able to exist as they do and not feel guilty about the lives we lead while so many other suffer for it. It is the reason the rich can stand proudly on the backs of the poor and not shed a single tear to quench the thirsty at the bottom of the economical pyramid.

Many of my friends deny that global warming is real and believe we can think ourselves out of climate change. WE can invent new ways to retrieve oil and other hydrocarbons. We can mold our world to fit our needs is what the mass consensus is. The world is mostly made of Joe Sixpack's and Molly 20 ouncer's and these people are not hard to lead around. Throw in a few passages from the bible and scream that your anti-abortion or gay marriage and they are on your side. It is easy to divert there attention from the truth because most people have perpetual ADD now.

[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Madpaddy', 'J')PL,

TEOTWAWKI doesn't mean zombie hordes, nuclear war and trench warfare in central europe against the Chinese.

I do believe, it will mean rationing of resources, poverty, hunger and civil unrest.

[HEADER_RACK]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hirty-three percent of respondents couldn't pinpoint Louisiana on a map.

Fewer than three in 10 think it important to know the locations of countries in the news and just 14 percent believe speaking another language is a necessary skill.

Two-thirds didn't know that the earthquake that killed 70,000 people in October 2005 occurred in Pakistan.

Six in 10 could not find Iraq on a map of the Middle East.

Forty-seven percent could not find the Indian subcontinent on a map of Asia.

Seventy-five percent were unable to locate Israel on a map of the Middle East.

Nearly three-quarters incorrectly named English as the most widely spoken native language.

Six in 10 did not know the border between North and South Korea is the most heavily fortified in the world.

Thirty percent thought the most heavily fortified border was between the United States and Mexico.

Source: The Associated Press

[gt1370a]

I wondered that, until I read the comments here. No, they clearly don't have a clue.

[threadbear]

Google "cognitive dissonance." The issue of environmental degradation, exists as a body of fuzzy incomplete thoughts, isolated in the depths of their subconscious. Like a swarm of perturbed gnats, these thoughtlets occasionally pester the fringes of conscience, before they are swatted back into oblivion.

[bkwillia]

Yes, ppl really know because we have evolved from an environment of scarcity and conflict. Their behavior actually reflects this inherant knowledge by the way they are never satisfied with what we have, and are reluctant to freely share with others. They know this period of excess will come to an end, and dont want to left with nothing when its gone. The rat race is an effort to get ahead while the getting is good. Nobody will admit that end times are near, because nobody ever feels satisified in their preparations. They want to enjoy what comfort they have without pondering the possibility that it will be short lived, but are all the while driven to seek greater degrees of comfort with out any consideration to what is sustainable. Sustainability is a goal for those are planning for stability. Excessive consumption and accumulation of material wealth is a behavior of someone who anticipates scarcity.

[Spanktron9]

I have always wondered, even as a young child, where all this "stuff" (raw materials) comes from, and wouldn't we run out of it at some point? But since I was a child, I just assumed that "grown ups" were smarter than me and knew all about where to get more, etc.
By the time I was in college, I decided that Humanity had at most 50 years left before some major "event" took out the bulk of society. At the time I wasn't PO aware, so I ranked environmental holocaust, nuclear war, or meteor impact as pretty high. Looks like PO will beat them all to the punch.

[mos6507]

People know that hardship awaits, but they can't give up the idea that the market/system/science will step in and save the day. The notion of overshoot and die off is completely off their radar.

[Peleg]

If I can build on the analogy you seem to be making, I think you have sleeping people and awake people. The problem with being awake is that, unless you are rich or can find some rectitude in your misfortune or pious committment to the truth, it sucks.

Sleeping is however fundamental to a healthy life. If you do not sleep you go mad. And it might be that those who cannot ignore something in life actually are mad. Overthinking the risks leads one to anxiety.

So let's call it red pill/blue pill. Since coming into the study of depletion I see a clear change in my life and goals. I am less happy, I am less trusting of alot of things and people. I am coping with it now after going through the stages of grief. You realize don't you that having taken the red pill you are sort of like a humanoid with special powers. Because you face the truth you have the ability to plan rather than simply react. This is a survival advantage.

I have also, oddly found even more peace in prayer after the 'big revelation' about peak oil, but it took a while. Trauma that does not break your spirit makes you stronger and gifts you, but now how do you use that gift is what I think is important. And that is probably the most important question of all.

[Nano]

I'd say that most people have a moment in their lives when they realise that the world is a shit storm, suffering and injustice is the norm, and sickness and death are inescapable.

Then they grow up and forget about it and become good, productive citizens.

It's just certain people with a masochistic bent (usually young people with too much time and money on their hands) who dwell on the dark side of existence, wasting their time and energy on whatever doom is in fashion, whether it is the sky falling down, nuclear armageddon, or more recently and tangibly, peak oil.

A friend asked me whether I was really going to spend my life worrying about peak oil. It was a good question. I'm still wondering about the answer. I guess when peak oil has become mainstream I'll stop 'worrying' about it.

[Hagakure_Leofman]

Thanks Narz. For your post and this thread. I think you are correct. Especially your referring to the strength of cultural indoctrination.

That is a powerful blanket that suffocates thinking, and indeed - camouflages the elephant in the living room the children keep point to.

Fortunately, we can free ourselves from this, or so it seems to me. We can open our eyes.