by socrates1fan » Thu 03 Jul 2008, 19:28:39
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('socrates1fan', 'I')'m talking about the Americans that make ends meet paycheck to paycheck. The people that can afford this only buy cars and things like that on special days(like xmas or birthdays.).
So its not that people can't afford it because they spend their money on SUVs or ipods its that these people can't afford much in general. Too bad those people were too busy buying food or trying to keep the lights on huh?
Well I would qualify - paycheck to paycheck - but I started over ten years ago and never bought satellite, canceled my cell phone, stopped eating out, sold the nice car and bought a 20 year old POS, bought a rural place for 80k, etc. Most Americans think sh%t like cable and cell phones are a requirement... Its amazing how much they could buy into alternatives had they cared or tried. Like HeaderRack said though... If you're starting now you better bust ass.
-G
I'm sorry but if u can buy a rural place for 80k then you aren't what I'm talking about.
I am talking about the people that make up a pretty big bulk of the population that occupy the neighborhoods no one wants to live in, have the jobs no one else wants, and were conserving for economic reasons long before any of you were. Most lower class people I know don't even have cable because they can't afford it.
by Cashmere » Thu 03 Jul 2008, 22:13:13
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('socrates1fan', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('socrates1fan', '
')Too bad a majority of Americans can't afford that.
Too bad so many CHOSE to blow their money on other things. New car, kitchen remodeling, new ipod, cell phone contracts, satellite TV, etc.
I've scrounged for panels and used solar equipment, I've saved up for batteries, I've rigged things myself and done everything from concrete work, plumbing and electrical myself to cut costs.
I'm no rich man. My house was cheap and looks like hell. But I chose to spend what I have on infrastructure not aesthetics...
And.... I've been at it over a decade...
-G
I'm talking about the Americans that make ends meet paycheck to paycheck. The people that can afford this only buy cars and things like that on special days(like xmas or birthdays.).
So its not that people can't afford it because they spend their money on SUVs or ipods its that these people can't afford much in general. Too bad those people were too busy buying food or trying to keep the lights on huh?
Soc - you've got this one wrong.
For most Americans over the last 50 years, being poor was a lifestyle choice.
At any time in my life, up til now, I could have easily kept and landed 2 jobs paying 12 bucks an hour or more, no college degree necessary.
So figure 65 hours a week - fairly light schedule.
That means 40 grand a year. 20 grand in expenses, max, and I'm clearing 20 a year.
Get a babe on board, you're clearing 40 a year.
In 5 years buy a nice house for cash.
Quit 1 of the jobs.
Bottom line - 99.9% of the "poor" people I met in my life chose to be poor.
By blowing their money on crap, doing drugs, drinking booze, losing jobs, being shit-y workers, having no ambition . . .
living in a 5,000$ trailer and owning a 30,000$ truck.
Socialists, liberals, and apologists like to make excuses.
You want to see poor Soc?
You're going to. You're going to find out what poor is.
Not the fake poor we've been looking at for the last 50 years who simply prefer to live like slobs if the alternative is hard work and self control.
Now you're going to see poor.
Counting ribs poor.
Massive Human Dieoff <b>must</b> occur as a result of Peak Oil. Many more than half will die. It will occur everywhere, including where <b>you</b> live. If you fail to recognize this, then your odds of living move toward the "going to die" group.
by Narz » Fri 04 Jul 2008, 15:37:40
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cashmere', 'Y')ou'll notice as you peruse this site that the extent to which a member believes that we are doomed is highly correlated to their knowledge level.
That is a causitive relationship.
I agree, when I first joined I had just read Savinar's site and a few books and I was like
. Now that I've done a significant amount of reading (as well as traveling the country & simple observation) I believe a scenario more along the likes of the one that wertz suggested is more likely.
The newbies (& a few vocal veteran hardcore doomers) are the ones most likely to be like "OMG, I just read dieoff.com, where can I buy bulk beans???!!!"
I'm not attached to any particular worldview though (except the one I want to create) but I hope Hogan is correct.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') agree. We will adapt, but I think most modern technology won't survive the transition. Life will become much more physically harder, more local, and simpler later on. But I think overall, most people will be happier.
Long term, global warming is scarier than peak oil, to me.
“Seek simplicity but distrust it”
by GeneralGreen » Fri 04 Jul 2008, 17:30:36
Wertz,
The advise of don't listen to the doomers..is silly...
Look just go read Catton on overshoot...found over at dieoff.org
Believe what you want....I think your senerio is very optimistic and leaves out many things which have been talked about here 1,000 times.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')ong term, global warming is scarier than peak oil, to me.
Global warming..
The Die off will take care of much of mankind before we have to worry about global warming. Mother nature has ways of correcting itself...The great Cleasing to come will slow down global warming.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'e')xcept, of course, Matthew Simmons or Dr. Kenneth Deffeyes or Michael Klare and others who think we can get to the other side of this thing. You have to ignore those people
Add to that, Mr Catton, Mr Tantier, Dr Cambell, Dr Bakhrtiti, and many many others to name a few....Hell even liberals like Mr R. Hindenburg believe the world is going to Die off. "Read his "Letter from the Future"
Last edited by
GeneralGreen on Fri 04 Jul 2008, 17:35:24, edited 1 time in total.
by watermelonpunch » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 16:56:54
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hogan', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wertz', '
')What I'm worried about is transportation.
Personal transportation? I would be more worried about food later on than anything else.
To someone thinking in terms of our present economy, which won't disappear overnight, personal transportation
= food.
There is no public transportation of any sort that could get me to work. Taxi services don't even run between where I live & where I work.
And if I can't get to work, I don't get paid, and if I don't get paid, I can't purchase food, or pay any other bills for that matter.
Therefore, my priority has to be transportation.
So transportation is the most immediate concern for those of us at risk early on.
If even the more moderately dire situations come to pass, I think only the very well off will still be around to worry about truly unavailable food the way you're thinking of it.
In a relatively mild transitional period, I would have a couple of reasons to think my particular job at the company I work for, may exist for some time into the peak oil decline.
Getting to work, consistently, through whatever economic/lifestyle transition comes to pass, is a legitimate first line worry.
Meaning many of us hope that we'll be able to hang onto some kind of traditional job for some length of time before we're begging for a cot in some farmer's barn to work for food & minimal shelter.
If the more dire predictions come to pass, most of us who are worrying about personal transport won't be around to worry about food anyway. We'll be part of the massive die-off. So again, personal transport is a legitimate concern either way.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wertz', 'A')re people growing gardens and picking up shotguns
Well, Um, yeah..... Aren't you?
And I should add
Switching to complete off grid PV, Solar/wood heating, well outfitted shop, Independent water cisterns etc etc etc...
-G
by watermelonpunch » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 17:06:56
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('socrates1fan', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('socrates1fan', '
')Too bad a majority of Americans can't afford that.
Too bad so many CHOSE to blow their money on other things. New car, kitchen remodeling, new ipod, cell phone contracts, satellite TV, etc.
I'm talking about the Americans that make ends meet paycheck to paycheck. The people that can afford this only buy cars and things like that on special days(like xmas or birthdays.).
So its not that people can't afford it because they spend their money on SUVs or ipods its that these people can't afford much in general. Too bad those people were too busy buying food or trying to keep the lights on huh?
My thoughts exactly.
I can't afford to buy a house, so no kitchen remodeling for me.
I haven't had cable tv in over a decade (when it was a small bill).
I've never had an ipod.
I only got a cell phone, and only a few years back, because all my family & many friends are long distance, so it actually makes financial sense - to not have long-distant bills.
When I rarely go out to a restaurant with friends to socialize, it's for lunch or dessert, and always someplace cheap.
I haven't been to a cinema in over a year.
My computer is over 8 years old now, with minimal upgrades.
I've never had a new car, and my current car is 17 years old.
I have NO credit card debt. But I do have some MEDICAL debt.
I suppose I should've nixed on that life-saving surgery so I could afford a solar system now. Oh yeah, that's right, I would be dead now!
So it wouldn't matter.
by MonteQuest » Mon 07 Jul 2008, 01:13:24
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wertz', 'A')s far as the U.S. goes, I think this will hurt bad, as bad if not worse as anything since the great depression, but its not going to happen overnight.
Well, so far it has. Looked at the stock market and the price of oil?
To say it's not going to happen overnight requires you to know what the rate of oil decline willbe and what the URR's really are.
No one knows these answers. No one.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat I think is going to work is that all investment capital is going to go into renewables while the US switches more and more to nuclear and coal just to sustain us a little bit.
Ok, so who does without energy while we divert it to building renewables, coal plants and nuclear facilities?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd while maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of this country is going to be completely on its knees, I think we will emerge and if its handled well I think we will still have enough electricity with renewables, natural gas, coal, and nuclear power.
Electricity? What about liquid fuels? Electrical shortages may be coming, but right now the game in town is liquid fuels.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e will still probably have to use some non-renewables for a while, but the solar and wind will be the biggest industries in this country until we completely solve the crisis.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
by MonteQuest » Mon 07 Jul 2008, 01:22:05
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', 'w')ertz
I pretty much share your view. There's so much unbelievable fat out there that can be trimmed before things get to the zombie/roaming gangs level.
Let's add a bit of clarity to that:
There's so much unbelievable fat (hard-working people's jobs)out there that can be trimmed before things get to the zombie/roaming gangs level.
Trim all that fat (people's jobs) and you may get a zombie gang from ranks of the unemployed.
Why is it that people don't seem to grasp that "fat" and "waste" employs millions. It all gets bought and paid for and delivered before it can be wasted.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
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by MonteQuest » Mon 07 Jul 2008, 01:28:18
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wertz', 'S')o people think the decline is going to be too sharp to reinvent our nation as a solar and nuclear country before it all completely falls apart? I sure hope that's not what happens.
Read this thread I wrote some time back and you tell me.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Montequest', 'H')ow long will it take to ramp up renewables to the point where they can provide a significant amount of our primary energy?
Remember, we are starting at an overall number of 2%, with wind and solar less than 1%.
How long can we wait to start a Manhattan Project for renewable energy?
Depends upon the date of peak and the decline rate, doesn’t it?
What if we are already here?
Peakoil and the Growth of Renewable Energy
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
