[PenultimateManStanding]

Shouldn't hijack threads so here is the question in its very own thread: Should we teach our children to be patriotic, love their country or what?

[Falconoffury]

Teach them to love the people, the land, and the ideals of our founding fathers. Teach them the value of the bill of rights. Teach them the differences between the Bush administration and the ideals of the founding fathers.

[parainwater]

I agree completely with Falconoffurry. Teach them to "love the land the people and the ideals of the founding fathers" and most of all teach them the importance of our Bill of Rights. Defending these ideals are the true essence of American patriotism and not necessarily flag waving.

[Barbara]

LOL PMS, we should make a phone call and discuss this directly!
Anyway, I think there's no need to teach anything. "Patriotism" is a word I don't like, while I believe a true love for one's country is something which blossoms naturally, as love for your mother, good or bad she is.
Love for your country is good and natural, patriotism is very dangerous: it can easily lead to dictatures, to silence people... it reminds me of 1984.
We are so lucky to live in democracies: and it's our duty to look at our countries with an open mind and criticize the govt when it makes mistakes, keeping an eye on it. If else, how could we exercise our vote rights in the right way? If I'm forced to believe that my country always act for the good, or being called "unpatriotic", then how can I vote for someone else? How can I take this responsibility? My vote rights basis vanished, it become useless.
I'm sure children understand this, exactly as they understand when their mother makes a mistake. They have the right to say "mom, you're wrong" without being blamed. This is the freedom I try to teach my son.
Hope I was clear with my bad english...

[k_semler]

Teach them the ideals of which this nation was founded. Have them read the Constitution and declaration of independence enough to be able to reffer to it when neseccary. Have them read the federalist papers at least twice before they turn 18, (or once if they are late teens), Teach them American History, not the "I Am Always Right" traditionalist kind, or the panzy-ass modern liberal shit, just teach them the truth of our nation. If you are successful, the spirit of rebellion will be reborn, and there may be hope again for this once great nation. The urge of freedom is ressurected with the birth of every generation, if you are good with your teachings, this spirit of rebellion will not be crushed, but made stronger, and become one of the person.

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Falconoffury', 'T')each them to love the people, the land, and the ideals of our founding fathers. Teach them the value of the bill of rights. Teach them the differences between the administrations of the last century and the ideals of the founding fathers.

[Aaron]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')OL PMS, we should make a phone call and discuss this directly!

[AnnaLivia]

the very simplest, most enjoyable, and most effective way i have ever been able to find to teach your children the good ideas you all speak of above (except for the one lame comment, ahem) is to get them to read Howard Zinn at the appropriate age. he is not hard to read at all. he speaks in plain language a young teen could for the most part understand.

"A People's History of the United States" takes a superb, well documented, and revealing look at this country's true history as lived by the citizens. you will love more than ever our people...your own ancestors...after reading this book! your kids will learn the difference between what those in a government say, and what they often do. they will learn to distinguish what their own true interests are.

"Declarations of Independence" cross-examines american ideology.

both of these books are very valuable eye-openers. Zinn is a patriot in the GOOD sense of the word (like barbara and others described). he is a Veteran and a historian. i cannot reccommend these works of his highly enough.

you'll actually ENJOY discussing what they've read with your kids!

[Barbara]

Too bad, Aaron, this site discriminates Macintosh users!

Anyway, I'd like to remind you all that "patriotic" doesn't mean "american". There are people from other contries here, so please stop talking about founding fathers... also because our founding fathers story lies in the Stone Age! he he he

[Aaron]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Barbara', 'T')oo bad, Aaron, this site discriminates Macintosh users!

Anyway, I'd like to remind you all that "patriotic" doesn't mean "american". There are people from other contries here, so please stop talking about founding fathers... also because our founding fathers story lies in the Stone Age! he he he

[nero]

Patriotism definition : Love and devotion for one's country

I think it definitely should not be taught. How do you teach love? You could try and indoctrinate children or force feed patriotism, basically by drumming into them from an early age that you are disloyal if you do not love your country, but is that real patriotism?

To really love your country you have to be able to really see it, it's flaws and it's strengths. Not a boastful caricature of the country but the real thing, including the ugly bits and pieces like the way America and Italy ignore their ugly histories of genocide and slavery. It certainly doesn't mean that you disassociate yourself from the precedents of the past 100 years and love the caricature you have of the founding father's vision. That isn't the real America. The real America is the present, George W. Bush, Paris Hilton, reality TV, preemptive wars, SUVs, the ISS, the Los Angeles freeway system, and a thousand and one good things that I won't mention. Love your country with all it's faults and I'll gladly call you a patriot, and claim your patriotism to be as benign as love for one's own mother. If your "patriotism" was drummed into you from an early age and it inhibits your ability to see your country for what it really is, I think it is one of the most dangerous ideas in the world, and should be expurgated from the world.

[Barbara]

hey nero,
>>>like the way America and Italy ignore their ugly histories of genocide and slavery<<<<

ehm, not to be patriotic , but Italy doesn't ignore at all its story of, say, fascism. That's why we don't like the word "patriotic": Mussolini made the largest use of it, and we absolutely connect the words "patriotic" with "fascism". That's also why we are scared of american flag waving.

(Aaron: installing what? Windows 2000? DOS???????? No way. Thanks anyway, my friend! But... why that chat is always empty?)

[nero]

Barbara,

You're right I was stretching it a bit, I didn't want America to feel like I was picking on it all countries have things they tend to ignore. Canadians don't like to think about poverty on native reserves but that's part of Canada too. Do Italians really accept responsibility for their role in perpetrating those crimes or do they look at it as the fault of all those nasty fascists and try to avoid thinking about their complicity. I'm curious what is your impression?

[Barbara]

nero,
>>>>>>I didn't want America to feel like I was picking on it<<<<<
oh I understand, it's always wise not to offend americans LOL (just joking!!!)

>>>Do Italians really accept responsibility for their role in perpetrating those crimes or do they look at it as the fault of all those nasty fascists and try to avoid thinking about their complicity.<<<<

Well, as you may understand it's not an easy task. Anyway, when we (italian people in general) talk about fascism used to say "WE" did this and that, not "THEM". We are very ashamed because of that bad war in Africa, where we gassed Ethoipians. Yes, these lovely italians used WMD 60 years ago. And also, we feel it was typically italian to join those crazy Germans just to win another war. it cost me a lot to admit this in an international forum, but everybody here in Italy shares the same thoughts, leftists or rightists.
Of course, we also feel relieved because Mussolini was far better than Hitler, so the Germans got all the blame and we were somehow spared LOL, but maybe you can understand why italian just say NO NO NO to any war, whatever the reason. And believe me, to our eyes terrorism is in no way a good reason to make a war. We'd accept a war ONLY and if someone puts its feet on our soil.
When your country do bad things and you have the strenght to admit it and go on, then your country is stronger and better.
I often go to Germany, and that people is the best I've seen so far. They were the worst in history maybe (but I'm not so sure...), but they were the only ones always begging for pardon. No Spanish asked pardon for american indians, no portuguese for trading slaves, no americans for native or else, no british for killing people in colonies... Germans punished themselves and now they are better. We should all stop being so patriotic and follow their example a bit.

[smiley]

LOL Barbara. I thought you guys had a founding-(wolf)mother

But seriously what is patriotism?
- Does it mean that you wear stars-and-stripes socks?
- Does it mean that you drop your pringles and your Budweiser and sing along every time the national anthem is on?
- Does it mean that you know by heart that the battle of Gettysburg started on July the 1st 1863?

In my opinion it is none of the above. Wearing stars and stripes items is just a sign of lacking any clue on fashion. When singing the anthem you should be aware that even Britney Spears covered it. As even she could remember all the words, singing it can't be such an extraordinary feat.

History. Yes everyone should learn as much about history as they could, international history as well as national history. But that has little to do with patriotism.

There is only one way to show that you give a damn about your country and its future. That is not to end up among the 40% who don't turn out to vote at the elections.

You want to teach your kids patriotism. Teach them to vote.

[AnnaLivia]

yes, of course, vote...but too many americans already think democracy starts and stops there. that's a big problem. democracy by definition requires people to be involved in governing themselves. it's all about what we're going to leave to those who come after us.

people used to be better informed than we are in the information age. about their governments, anyway. newspapers were honest (more so) back then...and there were more independent sources.

i think the people have fallen, yes, but they were pushed, first. either way, it's time to get off our knees.

make sure your kids know the difference between patriotism and Nationalism. big difference! also, law and justice are not nearly always the same thing either. and are the interests of a billionaire really the same as your interests?

barbara, for what it's worth, i don't know a single american who equates the Italian people of today with fascism in any way. we don't in general go much deeper than equating you guys with great pasta and beautiful vineyards, and rome and the pope, to tell you the truth.

it was good of you to tell your story. a small percentage of americans hold passports. the world wide web is such a gift.

every land has been ruled by cruel, self-seving elites...the poor man governs nowhere. i so wish people could see that the rich of any and all nations are first and foremost a worldwide club unto themselves, fighting amongst themselves to keep their game going, using us to wage their bloody wars for wealth.

as a global strike by all workers at once (the worker's power is only fully known when his hands are firmly in his pockets) could cut the legs out from under the dependent class and force change, so to could citizens have what they want if they'd stop being just taxpayers and be citizens again.

and those who seem to talk and talk about mostly just america? that's only because of this country's status economically and militarily. for good or bad, it's there. so we know we have to fix what's broke in america, and we are the ones who don't forget our international brothers and sisters. we want to take our country back as much for you as for ourselves. truly.

[arocoun]

I'd say that, rather than teaching children to love one's country, it would be much better to teach them to love certain principles. Principles like freedom, justice, equality, etc. Teach them to love those principles, and those entities (like governments, countries, etc.) which support those principles. Teach them to love their country, as long as it follows those principles; and to oppose their country in any case where it opposes those principles.

[lotrfan55345]

To love a peice of land inside imaginary borders?

No.

[smallpoxgirl]

Absolutely we should teach our children patriotism.

If I had a child, I would teach them to love the Nisqually Nation. And I would teach them to hate the American's who are illegally occupying their land and the land of all the other indigenous peoples of Turtle Island. I would teach them about the brave indigenous heros of the past who fought and died trying (unsucessfully) to keep their nation free and democratic. And I would teach them about lying genocidal scoundles like George Washington and Adolf Hitler and Abraham Lincoln and Pol Pot and Andrew Jackson. I would teach them about evil American civilians that cheered while their soldiers blew up inocent Iraqi children. That laughed while they dropped napalm on the children of Vietnam and Falujah. That staged a victory parade in Denver after the Colorado Volunteers masacred Cheyenne children at Sand Creek. I would teach them about all the incocent, Somali, Korean, Fillipino, Mexican, Hawaiian, Laotian, Lakota, Cherokee, Apache, Dine, and the the childrens of hundreds of other nations who were murdered by Americans. I would teach them to hate the American children just like the American children learn to hate the children of all other nations.

What kind of a world would it be if children weren't taught egotism and hate? What kind of world would it be if they weren't taught so many lies in the schools that even as adults most of them haven't figured it out? We have to teach them about how honest and self serving and freedom loving their rulers were and are. We have to teach them all sort of lies about how other peoples hate freedom. We have to teach them about how honorable and productive wars are. About how the profit motive isn't involved at all. If people are going to learn to hate other people and believe all sorts of egotistical lies about themselves as adults. If they are going to be bullied around by a government and think their injuries are self inflicted. If they are going to cheerfully send their children off to kill someone else's children then they have to be taught as children how brave and proud and free they are, even if it is a load of horse crap. No question we must teach our children patriotism. The future depends on us!

That was what you meant wasn't it?

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AnnaLivia', '
')barbara, for what it's worth, i don't know a single american who equates the Italian people of today with fascism in any way. we don't in general go much deeper than equating you guys with great pasta and beautiful vineyards, and rome and the pope, to tell you the truth.