[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('frankthetank', 'I')ts hard making a continuous left turn. Pushing that gas down isn't easy either. When I look to the heavens I can still see that little number 3 going around the track.

[grampybone]

Nascar sucks. What a waste of resources. If it dies I say good riddance

[catbox]

I have a friend who was a die-hard car racing fan....from Indy, F1, to NASCAR and did some cart racing himself. I turned him on to cycling and he never looked back. I think the thing that did it was taking him up and over a few Mtn passes in Colorado back in the 90's...that day kicked his ass. I think he realized what was a sport and what was not.
Not sure if any of you have ridden yourself over a mountain but you might give it a go. And no, you don't need drugs to do it.

NASCAR a sport? It's not for me and not a sport.



catbox

[Impervius]

NASCAR dying? OMG...

Something else will have to fill that void. I think dog fighting and cock fighting will make a comeback in a big way. The fans wont have to drive far. Just walk to the field behind their trailer park.

[SolarDave]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('canis_lupus', 'F')1 is looking at ways to develop cars where the technology would be transferable to road cars - smaller, fuel efficient turbos, ethanol, tire compounds, etc., all with consumers in mind.

Cool stuff.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SolarDave', '
')Maybe if they looked at batteries it would be worth paying attention.

[catbox]

I was wondering about the caravan for all the races and Grand Tours...the energy use for that must be insane!
Maybe the next great cyclist will be some kid who grows up w/o ever driving a car?
I do know some F1 drivers ride to stay in shape, not sure about NASCAR drivers.....probably not too many NASCAR fans manage to leave the motor home or couch for a 3-4 hour ride.

catbox

[MrBill]

I am certainly not going to defend motor sports, but car manufacturers do use these races to both improve and to test new technologies. Ditto for the lubricants, tyres, etc. Lessons learned on the track go into their most advanced and fuel-efficient production models. And it is a form of marketing. I will not defend marketing either, but even Toyota needed to sell a lot of models to be able to afford to develop the Prius. Profits pay for research and development.

Also, motor racing may not be your thing, it is certainly not mine, but I do have my hobbies like skiing, and I am sure someone, someday will say, what a complete waste of time, money and energy. Environmental extremists that do not believe in mixed recreational land use would love to see a ban on all skiing. That is fair enough because I would like to hold their heads under water until they stopped kicking. Fair is fair.

Golf courses like parks create green spaces. Not unimportant if you live in a concrete jungle. A four hour walk is good for you. Not all areas are water poor, so what is wrong with golf courses where there is room, where there is water and where there is demand? I think it is good clean fun. However, that is not to defend golf courses that are built in the middle of the desert that you are forced to drive around in carts. Clearly, that is not my point, but someday, someone is going to take your bit of fun away from you. Maybe their need will outweigh your want. Tough luck. That is the tyranny of the majority.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '.')...
Golf courses like parks create green spaces. Not unimportant if you live in a concrete jungle. A four hour walk is good for you. Not all areas are water poor, so what is wrong with golf courses where there is room, where there is water and where there is demand? I think it is good clean fun. However, that is not to defend golf courses that are built in the middle of the desert that you are forced to drive around in carts. Clearly, that is not my point, but someday, someone is going to take your bit of fun away from you. Maybe their need will outweigh your want. Tough luck. That is the tyranny of the majority.

[Wren]

Yeah, it's the environmentalists trying to spoil others fun. Because that statement makes sense. And the water issue happening on the planet is no big deal and peak oil is the only real issue that exists in a vacuum and is only about oil.
The idea of peoples needs coming before peoples wants not only DOESN'T sound like "tyranny of the majority", (it doesn't sound like having fun taken away, either- most of us adaptable enough to make our own fun when and where we are), it doesn't seem unreasonable either.
It does all sound (the denial of clean water shortages, the idea of environmentalists being tyrants trying to take fun away) a bit irrational, emotional immature and silly.
Might be a good time to get over any paranoid entitled delusions- all of us, weather we think it's fun or not.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'A')s the energy crunch grows more severe I expect environmentalists to spoil more of people's innocent fun.
or maybe I'm wrong?

[GoghGoner]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Impervius', 'N')ASCAR dying? OMG...

Something else will have to fill that void. I think dog fighting and cock fighting will make a comeback in a big way. The fans wont have to drive far. Just walk to the field behind their trailer park.

[mobil1]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'I') am certainly not going to defend motor sports, but car manufacturers do use these races to both improve and to test new technologies. Ditto for the lubricants, tyres, etc. Lessons learned on the track go into their most advanced and fuel-efficient production models. And it is a form of marketing. I will not defend marketing either, but even Toyota needed to sell a lot of models to be able to afford to develop the Prius. Profits pay for research and development.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'A')s the energy crunch grows more severe I expect environmentalists to spoil more of people's innocent fun.
or maybe I'm wrong?

[MrBill]

cube wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')owever nobody is putting the brakes on NASCAR. It's falling over it's own weight. I don't think the *cause* of NASCAR's downfall is the cost of fuel to make cars travel around a silly oval track, but instead the fanbase tends to come from a lower income group and thus fuel costs would hit them disproportionately harder. The "sport" has it's roots in the south-eastern part of the USA. That's not the wealthy part of the USA.

[AlexdeLarge]

You people are such dunder heads. The cost of fuel in NASCAR is negligible. The cost of the fuel for one race is under $30,000.00 Pocket change to the cost involved in operating a race team and pales in comparision to the revenue streams it generates.

The only threat to NASCAR is the same threat to any industry and or sport that relies on consumer "disposable income" to generate sales.

[f2tornado]

Lets get real here. The total fuel consumption for NASCAR is far smaller than the NFL, NBA, MLB, or NHL. Sure, the cars in NASCAR guzzle a limited resource but so do the fans and teams heading to the track just like all the legions of fans and teams getting to other sports venues. Sprint Cup, the primary NASCAR series holds some 36 scoring events during the year. Perhaps 100,000 people might show up at the track for an event. That comes out to about 3.6 million seasonal attendance. The fuel used by the 43 race teams during the races is a drop in the bucket compared to 3.6 million travellers. Lets take a look at the NFL. Here we have 32 teams playing 16 regular season games with half of them on the road any given week. There are 256 regular season games. Average attendance at these games in 2007 was 67,738 and the total was over 17 million. This figure is only one-fouth the attendance for MLB. Nearly 22 million attended an NBA game in 2007 and the figure is similar for the NHL. The average number of tickets sold for the last three summer Olympics probably significantly exceeds that of NASCAR and I would argue Olympic travellers and participants are leaving a much larger carbon footprint to get to their destination. I suppose we can give MLB a carbon credit for using wood bats and the olympics a diversity credit since that is the rage these days.

The race with lower attendence which led to this thread was in Michigan and we all know how poorly the economy is doing in that state. I'm certain NASCAR will have attendance issues at other tracks as well however since many of them are located in smaller population centers or in rural areas... Pocono, Louden, Darlington, Talladega, Daytona to name a few. NASCAR has expanded into the American Southwest over the last 15 years with tracks in Phoenix, AZ, Las Vegas, NV, and Fontana, CA. These areas are getting hit especially hard with the housing slump and energy costs. If people could afford to go to the races they would. Since these folks can watch it on TV for a buck a day they choose to stay at home. I cannot blame them. It will be interesting to see how well NFL attendence holds up this year. Perhaps attendance remains the same but ticket scalping might not be as profitable as it was in the past. Tailgating will have a new meaning when most of the trucks wth tailgates sit idly in suburban and far flung driveways.

If you are going to rip NASCAR for energy waste then lets hear it for the rest of the big sporting attractions which are more wasteful otherwise you are just using fuel waste as a cover to protest NASCAR on other grounds.

[Wren]

Wait wait wait. MrBill, what exactly are you talking about? First of all, we all live on the same planet, which is water stressed and if you think a golf course creates a "green space" in a concrete jungle, that's crazy. For many reason, but I don't have that much time so- Poor people live in concrete jungles where nobody else will live. Rich people, the people that use golf courses, can go anywhere in the world they want to see "green spaces" and MOST of them don't walk for four hours any time in their life.

So, in your first response to my post you refered to "tyranny of the majority" with the implication that this meant all the environmentalist trying to take other peoples fun away. THEN you use the "5/6ths of the worlds population living in the developing world." Which is who is suffering from our over consumtive habits (as well as other things, I know Which is not all our fault, I know, bc I know someone out there is just itching to fill us in on all the problems the developing world has caused for itself- but I was specifically talking about water.) So, the 5/6ths living in the developing world is suffering from the tyranny of the minority, then right? And who is that minority again?
OH YEAH, US.
And all of our wastefulness with everything, like some other posters have mentioned. And, once again, instead of taking the emotionally immature stand point that "there is always someone that thinks they know what is best for everyone else", (which means it feels like you're being pushed around or ignored or losing out and you don't like that, right?). Maybe, we should take the stand point, that we are going to have to change our MINDS first and then our habits, also. We are going to have to work with others.
Basically, you kind of argued yourself in a circle that didn't make a whole lot of sense.
And what IS peoples problems with so called "environmentalists"? here. Not saying that I am one, but it seems to me their little different than POers. They see a problem in their immediate surroundings/future and are trying to take steps to effect change for it. That's what we do. Even if we don't LIKE what they do, they are no diff.

[MrBill]

Thanks Wren. I did not realize that only rich people golfed. That was news to me. I also did not realize that green spaces in cities were unimportant. I seem to see a lot of visible minorities in the parks on the weekends. Maybe to get out of crammed apartments and enjoy the fresh air and sunshine? Or maybe just to spend time with their families? I do apologize for arguing in circles. I just did not realize there was a worldwide shortage of fresh water. I always stupidly assumed that there was a surplus in one region and a deficit in another. Maybe we should use fossil fuels to move fresh water around the globe to where it is needed? There are you happy?

UPDATE: its those damn public golf courses in Canada causing these problems... we ought to tow an iceberg or two to Africa!
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')ore than one billion people worldwide have no guaranteed access to water and more than two billion are without adequate sanitation, according to a report released on Wednesday by an anti-corruption organization.

Transparency International, a German-based non-governmental organization that focuses on corruption around the world, says that by 2025 more than three billion people could be living in water stressed countries.

The claims are made in the group's annual report, called Corruption in the Water Sector, which was released in Berlin and at the United Nations in New York on Wednesday.

It provides a snapshot of corruption-related events in 35 countries and regions around the world.

"Water is a resource without substitute. It is paramount to our health, our food security, our energy future and our ecosystem. But corruption plagues water management and use in all these areas," said Transparency International chair Huguette Labelle.