[MrBean]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('careinke', 'P')ower down is a cornucopian fantasy. Life boats are where it's at.

Cliff (Start a rEVOLution, grow a garden)

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBean', ' ')seeds of something really beautifull: Garden Planet, paradise on Earth.

[MrBean]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBean', ' ')agroforests that also stop desertification and improve the fertility of soil - means enlarging carrying capacity - which according to the first directive should not be done. But how else are we to establish sustainable localized production food and energy, if not by enlarging carrying capacity, which is the unavoidable consequense of sustainable localized production food and energy when compared to current nonsustainable way of destroying the carrying capacity?

[Ludi]

I think he feels the evidence for the 2-3 billion carrying capacity is sufficiently strong to make it an acceptable "fact."

My own opinion is that we can't know what the ultimate or natural carrying capacity of a given piece of land is. We tend to evaluate these things as though only humans would be living on that piece of land. This is not a beneficial point of view, in my opinion, because we know a functioning ecosystem needs all or most pieces in place, which means all the creatures and plants which would "naturally" live on the piece of land in the absence of man (or, in the absence of civilized man, I should say). So we can't just look at the land in terms of what it can give us humans, but what we must share with all other creatures. This means our food plants also will be eaten by a certain number of insects, varmints, etc. If we eliminate these critters, we aren't fostering an entire, functioning ecosystem, which is the goal of permaculture. Native plants must also be given a place. So remember, if you're talking permaculture, you're talking about not just a Garden Planet for humans, but for everyone else as well.

If we think about the carrying capacity in terms of allowing room for all ecosystems to function fully, it's easy to see that the human carrying capacity might be much lower than if we believed only humans could live on the planet. The damage and extinctions we see now from 6.7 billion humans might be due to the way we live, but it may also be in large part a result of turning all that lost biomass into human mass. No matter how we live, if we turn too much biomass into human mass, we have severely impacted the functioning of the biosphere, which depends on all or most of its parts. We simply do not know at present how many parts can be removed without the entire system failing. It would probably be more prudent to err on the side of caution and retain as many parts as possible in the biosphere, for our own survival as a species.

[MrBean]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBean', ' ')seeds of something really beautifull: Garden Planet, paradise on Earth.

[Ludi]

One of the most diverse and productive ecosystems on Earth, the Tallgrass Prairie, evolved at least partly in concert with human activity of burning forest edges to provide more habitat for game. In North America this was in general not a harmful strategy. In Australia, over a much longer period of time, it became a damaging strategy which reduced the carrying capacity of the land. So human activity is not necessarily destructive, and not necessarily beneficial. Our advantage now is our access to more information about how our actions are having an impact on the biosphere. It's information we shouldn't ignore.

[MrBean]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')So we can't just look at the land in terms of what it can give us humans, but what we must share with all other creatures. This means our food plants also will be eaten by a certain number of insects, varmints, etc. If we eliminate these critters, we aren't fostering an entire, functioning ecosystem, which is the goal of permaculture. Native plants must also be given a place. So remember, if you're talking permaculture, you're talking about not just a Garden Planet for humans, but for everyone else as well.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBean', 'M')ain principle: if there is a problem, don't try to solve it by taking action. Just stop doing what causes the problem.

[MrBean]

About biomass, ants, antarctic krill etc. beat humans, antarctic krill has biomass five times that of humans:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomass_%28ecology%29

Also this table is interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomass

No real point, just googeling out of curiosity.

[VMarcHart]

Monte, I find this to be a good thread. This is the kind of stuff a guy of your intellect can do to help. Good work! Keep it up!

[Serial_Worrier]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBean', 'A')bout biomass, ants, antarctic krill etc. beat humans, antarctic krill has biomass five times that of humans:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomass_%28ecology%29

Also this table is interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomass

No real point, just googeling out of curiosity.

[AlterEgo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBean', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')1. Stop trying to enlarge our carrying capacity. Stop trying to meet demand.
2. Learn to live on renewable resources consumed no faster than what is sustainable. Let nature set supply, not market demand.
3. Powerdown all aspects of our lives to ease the load on our ecosystem and global climate change.
4. Restrict per capita consumption and do away with certain wantonly wasteful uses of energy and resources.
5. Reduce the existing population to a sustainable level based upon an adequate lifestyle, not one of over- consumption and greed.
6. The establishment of sustainable, localized production of food and energy which is universally shared.

[VMarcHart]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AlterEgo', 'Y')ou need to stop doing what you're doing that is causing the problems, first. So population reduction needs to come first, before sustainable solutions can do anything except contribute more to the problem.

[Homesteader]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Serial_Worrier', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBean', 'A')bout biomass, ants, antarctic krill etc. beat humans, antarctic krill has biomass five times that of humans:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomass_%28ecology%29

Also this table is interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomass

No real point, just googeling out of curiosity.

[AlterEgo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VMarcHart', 'I') thought the use of (cheap and abundant) oil is what caused the population explosion, not the other way around.

[MrBean]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AlterEgo', '
')Mr. Bean, you've got a point. You need to stop doing what you're doing that is causing the problems, first. So population reduction needs to come first, before sustainable solutions can do anything except contribute more to the problem. My impression is that we are all sitting around here waiting for one of the Four Horsemen to come along and take care of it for us, since our ethics have evolved to fit a high-energy culture, that protects any life that it can at all costs.

[AlexdeLarge]

To achieve "Powerdown" a new form of government will be required. Policy must be mandated and must be enforced.

Who do you think will be our Overlords in this new workers paradise?

Will we all be Happy Hobbits living in an Agrarian wonderland?

If our past predicts our future, I do not think we will be so lucky.

Brave New World, 1984 and Animal Farm are worth reading again if you have the time.

"Alpha children wear grey. They work much harder than we do, because they're so frightfully clever. I'm awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard. And then we are much better than the Gammas and Deltas. Gammas are stupid. They all wear green, and Delta children wear khaki. Oh no, I don't want to play with Delta children. And Epsilons are still worse. They're too stupid to be able to read or write. Besides they wear black, which is such a beastly color. I'm so glad I'm a Beta."
- Aldous Huxley, Brave New World, Ch. 2

Will you be an Alpha or a Beta?

I will probably be a Zeta!

[VMarcHart]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AlterEgo', 'T')he problem of entropy and waste caused by cheap oil will disappear to some extent when the oil storages disappear.

[MrBean]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AlterEgo', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VMarcHart', 'I') thought the use of (cheap and abundant) oil is what caused the population explosion, not the other way around.

[MrBean]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AlexdeLarge', 'T')o achieve "Powerdown" a new form of government will be required. Policy must be mandated and must be enforced.

Who do you think will be our Overlords in this new workers paradise?

Will we all be Happy Hobbits living in an Agrarian wonderland?

If our past predicts our future, I do not think we will be so lucky.

Brave New World, 1984 and Animal Farm are worth reading again if you have the time.

"Alpha children wear grey. They work much harder than we do, because they're so frightfully clever. I'm awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard. And then we are much better than the Gammas and Deltas. Gammas are stupid. They all wear green, and Delta children wear khaki. Oh no, I don't want to play with Delta children. And Epsilons are still worse. They're too stupid to be able to read or write. Besides they wear black, which is such a beastly color. I'm so glad I'm a Beta."
- Aldous Huxley, Brave New World, Ch. 2

Will you be an Alpha or a Beta?

I will probably be a Zeta!