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Why does it seem..

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Why does it seem..

Unread postby socrates1fan » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 17:50:16

Why does it seem that so many here WANT society to collapse back to 1812 instead of wanting it to adapt for the sake of the planet and people.
It seems many here would enjoy seeing cities collapse, people die off, etc in an almost sick way.
Many here seem to almost hate humanity. Which I really don't understand either. We do have lack of balance in our society to a large degree but I never found anything wrong with luxury being avaliable to the general public. It seems also many here would like to see everyone filthy and tending potatoe fields.
Why is that?
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Re: Why does it seem..

Unread postby socrates1fan » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 18:01:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cbxer55', 'I')t seems to me that if they hate things so much,
they could give the whole thing a big head-start
by being the first to perish, self-inflicted.
They want every one else to die-off, leaving them
to their blissful, "green" future. Image Image Image


Indeed.
Many people also don't seem to realise that if the world went into the sort of collapse they believe it will go into that war would rage(using nukes) leaving this planet utterly useless. We have gone too far to turn back.
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Re: Why does it seem..

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 18:12:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('socrates1fan', '
')It seems many here would enjoy seeing cities collapse, people die off, etc in an almost sick way.


Waiting on Mad Max is no different than chasing tornadoes - simply the thrill of being in the right (or wrong, depending on your prerogative) place at the right time. Whether or not people and places are destroyed are immaterial to the urge to see something happen (in the case of PO, a revert to the civilizational norm).

To define human trajectory without mentioning resource constraints is engaging in wishful thinking. The piper will be paid, and we will see him firsthand.
"It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."

George Carlin
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Re: Why does it seem..

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 18:16:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('socrates1fan', 'W')e have gone too far to turn back.
We've gone too far to go forward either. You may misunderstand some of us, maybe not others of us. The point is that we've enjoyed a one time bonanza of amazing available energy. It's been there all along, but the last generations discovered what could be done with it. Without a collective thought to what would happen when the bonanza ended we went to the Moon, made cell phones and the internet. What is generally understood here is that there are no energy supplies waiting in the wings to keep it going. We can't go back and we can't go forward. The rest is just folks coming to grips with it in various ways.
Turn those Machines back On! - Don Ameche in Trading Places
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Re: Why does it seem..

Unread postby MD » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 18:24:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('socrates1fan', '
')Why is that?


VHEMT ideals, for one.

Anger for another.

Denial always.

Nostalgia from a few.

Then there's the rational few that figure 1812 is the odds on position. I'm thinking of adding horse breeding to my list of new ventures. What'ya think?
Stop filling dumpsters, as much as you possibly can, and everything will get better.

Just think it through.
It's not hard to do.
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Re: Why does it seem..

Unread postby Twilight » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 18:25:20

Maybe they do not understand all that they are wishing for.

About the same as people who wish for luxury.
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Re: Why does it seem..

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 18:41:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'I') don't know any chasers (and I do know a lot of chasers!) who enjoy seeing damage to people and property. The results of peak oil may well turn out to be awe inspiring, but I seriously doubt most of us (peakers) will find them beautiful.


We must see storm chasing a little differently. :oops:

The peak ain't going to be "beautiful" to me. Interesting? You bet.
Last edited by emersonbiggins on Thu 19 Jun 2008, 18:42:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why does it seem..

Unread postby socrates1fan » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 18:41:36

Wow you all make some excellent points.
However, energy is NOT in endless supply but there are other ways of obtaining it.
I do think that auto culture, etc will have to die so we can keep up good home living. I have no problems with using chemicals to make plants grow faster and larger, as long as it is not dangerous(as many are today.).
Luxury isn't something people have to sacrafice entirely.
Its certian types of luxury. People are always going to be gadget fanatics and hygiene freaks. But luxuries such as private autos, constant flying, etc are all bound for a dark ride.

Penultimatemanstanding-
That is why people are trying to find other energy alternatives.
However, I think it is done in an ill fashion by trying to salvage auto-culture which we will never find an alternative for.


Shannymara-
Industrial society can be saved but it must change entirely.
We can't have factories, shipping, etc based off of a fossil-fuel.
Factories should use everything from solar, wind, to water power without harming the environment. Industry can be salvaged but it must change. Their materials(such as plastics) need to be made up of things that have been re-used, you know, recycle. Especially in the metals and plastics.


MD-
Indeed. Nostalgia plays a role a lot of the time.
The good old days, before nukes, global warming, etc but the 'good old days' were also incredably hard, dangerous, etc.
An illness such as the flue or 'restroom problems' were enough to kill someone.
Horses eh?
I have always had a respect for those noble creatures.
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Re: Why does it seem..

Unread postby socrates1fan » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 18:42:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', 'I') don't know any chasers (and I do know a lot of chasers!) who enjoy seeing damage to people and property. The results of peak oil may well turn out to be awe inspiring, but I seriously doubt most of us (peakers) will find them beautiful.


We must see storm chasing a little differently. :oops:

The peak ain't going to be "beautiful" to me. Interesting? You bet.


The beauty of it depends very much on what we do now.
If by that time our basic needs are produced using renewable sources it won't harm as much as it would today.
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Re: Why does it seem..

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 18:46:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('socrates1fan', '
')Industrial society can be saved but it must change entirely.
We can't have factories, shipping, etc based off of a fossil-fuel.
Factories should use everything from solar, wind, to water power without harming the environment. Industry can be salvaged but it must change. Their materials(such as plastics) need to be made up of things that have been re-used, you know, recycle. Especially in the metals and plastics.



Do you think these changes will be made quickly enough to avoid collapse of the system? How will we continue industrial civilization, which is based on endless growth, if we are to avoid harming the environment?
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Re: Why does it seem..

Unread postby socrates1fan » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 18:58:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('socrates1fan', '
')Industrial society can be saved but it must change entirely.
We can't have factories, shipping, etc based off of a fossil-fuel.
Factories should use everything from solar, wind, to water power without harming the environment. Industry can be salvaged but it must change. Their materials(such as plastics) need to be made up of things that have been re-used, you know, recycle. Especially in the metals and plastics.



Do you think these changes will be made quickly enough to avoid collapse of the system? How will we continue industrial civilization, which is based on endless growth, if we are to avoid harming the environment?


Haha I knew I was going to get a response like that.
Oil isn't vanishing, its just becoming more expensive because of supply and demand.
Companies will keep using oil until it becomes more economical to use renewable sources. It will be a long transition but it will have to happen(or the companies will close entirely.).
There would have to be population limits or slowdown(something like the policey in China for all nations.)
Industries also need to maintain their resources. Lumber industry can maintain its stock by planting vast forests. Something along the lines of that.
People aren't morons, many people in the industry see the big picture and are for the well being of their company.
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Re: Why does it seem..

Unread postby Homesteader » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 19:25:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('socrates1fan', '
')
Haha I knew I was going to get a response like that.
Oil isn't vanishing, its just becoming more expensive because of supply and demand.
Companies will keep using oil until it becomes more economical to use renewable sources. It will be a long transition but it will have to happen(or the companies will close entirely.).
There would have to be population limits or slowdown(something like the policey in China for all nations.)
Industries also need to maintain their resources. Lumber industry can maintain its stock by planting vast forests. Something along the lines of that.
People aren't morons, many people in the industry see the big picture and are for the well being of their company.


With logic like this who needs brain cells?
Last edited by Homesteader on Thu 19 Jun 2008, 19:26:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Beliefs are what people fall back on when the facts make them uncomfortable.
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Re: Why does it seem..

Unread postby AlterEgo » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 19:26:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('socrates1fan', 'M')any here seem to almost hate humanity. Which I really don't understand either. We do have lack of balance in our society to a large degree but I never found anything wrong with luxury being avaliable to the general public. It seems also many here would like to see everyone filthy and tending potatoe fields.
Why is that?


Living sustainably within the carrying capacity of the earth is the only answer to peak oil, global warming, environmental degradation and collapse, and overpopulation. The longer we wait to curb our excesses, the more people will die.

Am I angry about the lack of insight? Yes.
Do I want to see everyone living sustainably? Yes.
It's not about hating humanity, Socrates, at least on my part. It's that I (we?) have done the math and realize that there is no way out, and that the sooner we get on with the adaptation, the better.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')Oil isn't vanishing, its just becoming more expensive because of supply and demand.
Companies will keep using oil until it becomes more economical to use renewable sources. It will be a long transition but it will have to happen(or the companies will close entirely.)."


Here's where your argument falls down. The rates of oil depletion will shut the economy down. You need to look at the scale of the problem, and do some math here. You're still in denial. Do some more reading here.
Because it's all about the oil.
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Re: Why does it seem..

Unread postby socrates1fan » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 19:29:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Homesteader', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('socrates1fan', '
')
Haha I knew I was going to get a response like that.
Oil isn't vanishing, its just becoming more expensive because of supply and demand.
Companies will keep using oil until it becomes more economical to use renewable sources. It will be a long transition but it will have to happen(or the companies will close entirely.).
There would have to be population limits or slowdown(something like the policey in China for all nations.)
Industries also need to maintain their resources. Lumber industry can maintain its stock by planting vast forests. Something along the lines of that.
People aren't morons, many people in the industry see the big picture and are for the well being of their company.


With logic like this who needs brain cells?


Ineed ;)
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Re: Why does it seem..

Unread postby JPL » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 19:37:28

Lesser of two evils, friend, lesser of two.

Also there's nothing wrong with home-grown veg. And personally I rather prefer it (grin).

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Re: Why does it seem..

Unread postby socrates1fan » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 19:38:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AlterEgo', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('socrates1fan', 'M')any here seem to almost hate humanity. Which I really don't understand either. We do have lack of balance in our society to a large degree but I never found anything wrong with luxury being avaliable to the general public. It seems also many here would like to see everyone filthy and tending potatoe fields.
Why is that?


Living sustainably within the carrying capacity of the earth is the only answer to peak oil, global warming, environmental degradation and collapse, and overpopulation. The longer we wait to curb our excesses, the more people will die.

Am I angry about the lack of insight? Yes.
Do I want to see everyone living sustainably? Yes.
It's not about hating humanity, Socrates, at least on my part. It's that I (we?) have done the math and realize that there is no way out, and that the sooner we get on with the adaptation, the better.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')Oil isn't vanishing, its just becoming more expensive because of supply and demand.
Companies will keep using oil until it becomes more economical to use renewable sources. It will be a long transition but it will have to happen(or the companies will close entirely.)."


Here's where your argument falls down. The rates of oil depletion will shut the economy down. You need to look at the scale of the problem, and do some math here. You're still in denial. Do some more reading here.


I am fully aware that if no one is buying a product they won't make it(demand determines all.). But that is just it. People won't stop buying the things they want, love, etc(and if they did it would be temporary.). Many people I know who already had problems making ends meet still purchase everything from dvds to expensive hygiene products.
Things like that are like depression medication.
I'm not in denial. The ones who are in denial are the people who say we have 300 years left of cheap oil or that technology will save us %100.
Reading here does me no good(anyone can post anything). Looking across news articles, writings, data, books, etc will help me if I am in 'denial'.
I have no doubt the world is going to have to change, however.
I don't believe it will be like 'world made by hand' either.
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Re: Why does it seem..

Unread postby JPL » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 20:06:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('socrates1fan', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AlterEgo', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('socrates1fan', 'M')any here seem to almost hate humanity. Which I really don't understand either. We do have lack of balance in our society to a large degree but I never found anything wrong with luxury being avaliable to the general public. It seems also many here would like to see everyone filthy and tending potatoe fields.
Why is that?


Living sustainably within the carrying capacity of the earth is the only answer to peak oil, global warming, environmental degradation and collapse, and overpopulation. The longer we wait to curb our excesses, the more people will die.

Am I angry about the lack of insight? Yes.
Do I want to see everyone living sustainably? Yes.
It's not about hating humanity, Socrates, at least on my part. It's that I (we?) have done the math and realize that there is no way out, and that the sooner we get on with the adaptation, the better.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')Oil isn't vanishing, its just becoming more expensive because of supply and demand.
Companies will keep using oil until it becomes more economical to use renewable sources. It will be a long transition but it will have to happen(or the companies will close entirely.)."


Here's where your argument falls down. The rates of oil depletion will shut the economy down. You need to look at the scale of the problem, and do some math here. You're still in denial. Do some more reading here.


I am fully aware that if no one is buying a product they won't make it(demand determines all.). But that is just it. People won't stop buying the things they want, love, etc(and if they did it would be temporary.). Many people I know who already had problems making ends meet still purchase everything from dvds to expensive hygiene products.
Things like that are like depression medication.
I'm not in denial. The ones who are in denial are the people who say we have 300 years left of cheap oil or that technology will save us %100.
Reading here does me no good(anyone can post anything). Looking across news articles, writings, data, books, etc will help me if I am in 'denial'.
I have no doubt the world is going to have to change, however.
I don't believe it will be like 'world made by hand' either.


Yes, I agree with you that the 21'st century will in no way resemble the 19'th - to believe otherwise is pure fantasy.

But you need to realise that we have - at the most - only a few decades of any sort of industrial culture left and even that is not enough time if you really think about it.

Plus, oil depletion is kicking in now & it will be followed by other energy sources, uranium and even any prospects for large-scale renewables will fade once we loose the ability to do manufacturing on any meaningful scale.

Fusion might save us, but again, the clock is ticking there.

There are alternatives. We can do things differently. But we need to face the facts full-on - and hopefully make some very necessary changes - localised agriculture, simple things like using human excrement as a resource rather than a problem, etc, etc. These are all known-about solutions. ONCE we get these ideas established in the mainstream, then maybe we can move forward again. But not until, I think...

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Re: Why does it seem..

Unread postby patience » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 20:06:28

I beg to differ about "...many people in the industry see the big picture...." . No. The decision maker levels may have a few who see the big picture, but I'd put it at 1% or less, with regard to PO and its' implications.

CEO's are hamstrung by the demands of the push for earnings, in THIS QUARTER, and damn the future. Or, they will be booted out. It is that simple. There is no longer any room for forward thinkers of the degree needed today. I'm convinced that most major companies in the US will fall like a lead balloon right alongside all the quick-buck artists on Wall Street, as the growth paradigm changes to simple survival. No different than the unprepared soccer mom in suburbia, who discovers that with $150 to $200 oil, her lifestyle is not only unaffordable, but doesn't exist in the way she knew it.
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Re: Why does it seem..

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 20:07:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('socrates1fan', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('socrates1fan', '
')Industrial society can be saved but it must change entirely.
We can't have factories, shipping, etc based off of a fossil-fuel.
Factories should use everything from solar, wind, to water power without harming the environment. Industry can be salvaged but it must change. Their materials(such as plastics) need to be made up of things that have been re-used, you know, recycle. Especially in the metals and plastics.



Do you think these changes will be made quickly enough to avoid collapse of the system? How will we continue industrial civilization, which is based on endless growth, if we are to avoid harming the environment?


Haha I knew I was going to get a response like that.


Can you answer my questions, please?

Thanks.
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Re: Why does it seem..

Unread postby socrates1fan » Thu 19 Jun 2008, 20:20:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('socrates1fan', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('socrates1fan', '
')Industrial society can be saved but it must change entirely.
We can't have factories, shipping, etc based off of a fossil-fuel.
Factories should use everything from solar, wind, to water power without harming the environment. Industry can be salvaged but it must change. Their materials(such as plastics) need to be made up of things that have been re-used, you know, recycle. Especially in the metals and plastics.



Do you think these changes will be made quickly enough to avoid collapse of the system? How will we continue industrial civilization, which is based on endless growth, if we are to avoid harming the environment?


Haha I knew I was going to get a response like that.


Can you answer my questions, please?

Thanks.

Haha apologies. I must have forgotten to answer them.
I think more and more companies in the near future will switch to things like solar, coal(even that is expensive), wind, etc
Some industries will remain while others will fall(I'm seeing dominantly the auto companies, fast food chains, etc.). I think many companies will work fast enough to keep their industry alive but others won't.
However, things can happen.
To avoid harming the environment while keeping up an industrial society we are going to have to do things differently. We need to reduce our impact as much as possible, whether that means using energy provided to us by nature(solar, wind, water) or people being sure to recycle all they can. However, you cannot eliminate the footprint you can only reduce it.
Population growth would also have to reduced. A policey like that in China would work well for the world. If anything we should reduce our population(not by mass killing but by discouraging over reproduction.) over many years to around 4 or 3 billion in my opinion.
You cannot eliminate need for finite resources either. You just have to encourage people to reuse as much as possible and be more careful.
Does that answer your questions? =-)
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