[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BO', 'I') feel hurt that you don't buy my ideology

[pUnk]

Dear yeahbut-
Thank you for your post. You are the third person who has very nicely tried to warn me about reacting to certain "styles" of posters. What can I say? Sometimes I am pretty hard-headed. I will take it to heart.
Thanks again.
-pUnk

[btu2012]

Ideology and Religion Shit List
(close-to-complete) author unknown

•Agnostic: Shit might have happened; then again, maybe not. •Agnostic #2: Did someone shit? •Agnostic #3: What is this shit? •Atheism: What shit? •Atheism #2: I can't believe this shit! •Buddhism: If shit happens, it isn't really shit. •Capitalism: That's MY shit. •Catholicism: If shit happens, you deserve it. •Calvinism: Shit happens because you don't work. •Chauvinism: We may be shit, but you can't live without us... •Christian Science: When shit happens, don't call a doctor - pray! •Christian Science #2: Shit happening is all in your mind. •Church of SubGenius: BoB shits. •Commercialism: Let's package this shit. •Communism: It's everybody's shit. •Confucianism: Confucius say, "Shit happens." •Congregationalist: Shit that happens to one person is just as good as shit that happens to another. •Creationism: God made all shit. •Darwinism: This shit was once food. •Episcopalian: It's not so bad if shit happens, as long as you serve the right wine with it. •Existentialism: Shit doesn't happen; shit IS. •Existentialism #2: What is shit, anyway? •Feminism: Men are shit. •Fundamentalism: If shit happens, you will go to hell, unless you are born again. (Amen!) •Fundamentalism #2: If shit happens to a televangelist, it's okay. •Fundamentalism #3: Shit must be born again. •Hare Krishna: Shit happens, rama rama. •Hedonism: There is nothing like a good shit happening! •Hinduism: This shit has happened before. •Idolism: Let's bronze this shit. •Impressionism: From a distance, shit looks like a garden. •Islam: If shit happens, it is the will of Allah. •Islam #2: If shit happens, kill the person responsible. •Islam #3: If shit happens, blame Israel. •Jehovah's Witnesses: 'Knock,' 'Knock' Shit happens. •Jehovah's Witnesses #2: May we have a moment of your time to show you some of our shit? •Jehovah's Witnesses #3: Shit has been prophesied and is imminent; only the righteous shall survive its happening. •Judaism: Why does this shit always happen to us? •Lutheran: If shit happens, don't talk about it. •Methodist: It's not so bad if shit happens, as long as you serve grape juice with it. •Moonies: Only really happy shit happens. •Mormonism: God sent us this shit. •Mormonism #2: This shit is going to happen again. •Nihilism: No shit. •Practical: Deal with shit one day at a time. •Presbyterian: This shit was bound to happen. •Protestantism: Let shit happen to someone else. •Quakers: Let us not fight over this shit. •Rastafarianism: Let's smoke this shit! •Satanism: SNEPPAH TIHS. •Scientology: If shit happens, see "Dianetics", p.157. •Secular Humanism: Shit evolves. •Seventh Day Adventism: No shit shall happen on Saturday. •Stoicism: This shit is good for me. •Taoism: Shit happens. •Unitarian: Shit that happens to one person is just as bad as shit that happens to another. •Unitarianism: Come let us reason together about this shit. •Utopianism: This shit does not stink. •Wiccan: An it harm none, let shit happen. •Zen Buddhism: Shit is, and is not. •Zen Buddhism #2: What is the sound of shit happening? •Zoroastrianism: Shit happens half of the time.

[threadbear]

BO--The Iroquois of the Northeast actually WERE ceremonial cannibals. Whether they ate people in pursuit of gastronomical delights, I'm unsure, but the idea that the Northeastern tribes just loved other Indigenous people, takes on a whole new meaning, if they did. They were also adepts at torture, abduction, slavery and warfare. During ceremonial torture, a matriarch was often given first dibs on cutting out chunks of flesh or burning the feet of the abducted.

You might want to peruse the globe for other virtuous primitives for role models. At the very least, if you do plan to emulate the Iroquois of yesteryear, let people know before you invite them over for dinner.

May I suggest the elf people of the pagan Celtic fairy faith ?[smilie=icon_bigsmurf.gif]

And seeing as you asked...yes I am older. Have heard most of the arguments, have had a series of friends who were ideological zealots and don't care to see utter nonsense spread online anymore than I like to expose myself to it in the social sphere.

[btu2012]

Hmm... Now that you mentioned it...
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ') The Iroquois, for example, are well known for their incessant warfare and their training of males to be immune to pain. They are also well known for their merciless treatment of prisoners of war. Captives were forced to run a gauntlet, their fingernails were pulled out and their limbs hacked off, and they were finally decapitated or roasted alive at the stake – after which their remains were consumed in cannibalistic feasts.
Marvin Harris, Cannibals and Kings: The Origin of Cultures, Glasgow, 1978, p. 69

[threadbear]

Hey BTU--To be fair, just so noone is confused as to the egalitarian nature of human depravity, let's toss this in, too.

The Torture Tariff of 1757 (an excerpt)--Archbishopric of Cologne.
This is a list of prices charged for torturing the indicted, which their family had to pay. Humanity never ceases to amaze me, be it "civilized", or not.


"29. For cutting off the tongue entirely, or part of it, and afterwards for burning the mouth with a red-hot iron. 5r 0a
30. For this procedure the usual ropes, tongs, and knife. 2r 0a
31. For nailing to the gallows a cut-off tongue or chopped-off hand. 1r 26a
32. For one who has hanged himself, or drowned him-self, or otherwise taken his own life: to take down , remove, and dig a hole to dispose of the corpse. 2r 0a
33. For exiling a person from the city or country. 0r 52a
34. For flogging in jail including the rods. 1r 0a
35. For thrashing. 0r 52a
36. For putting in the pillory. 0r 52a
37. For putting in the pillory and for whipping, including the rope and rods. 1r 26a
38. For putting in the pillory, branding, and whipping including coals, rope, and rods, also the branding ointment. 2r 0a
39. For inspecting a prisoner after he has been branded. 0r 20a
40. For putting the ladder to the gallows regardless of whether one or several are hanged the same day. 2r 0a

41. Concerning torture For the first degree of torture. 1r 0a
42. For terrorizing by showing the instruments of torture. 1r 26a
43. For arranging and crushing the thumb for his degree. 0r 26a
44. For the second degree of torture, including setting the limbs afterwards, and for salve which is used. 2r 26a
45. Should, however, a person be tortured in both degrees of torture, the executioner is to get for both degrees performed at the same time, set the limbs afterward and for the use of the salve, for all this he should be paid. 6r 0a
46. For the travel and daily expenses for everyday exclusive, however, of the days of execution or torture, regardless whether on these days one or several criminals are punished. 0r 48a
47. For daily food. 1r 26a
48. For each helper. 0r 39a
49. For hiring a horse for fodder, and stabling, the daily fee. 1r 16a

If a torture of execution takes place in Cologne, the executioner shall receive for this procedure the execution fees, without any addition of other extra such as travel daily expenses , food, horse hay and fodder; and he has to be satisfied with the above-mentioned execution fee.

When he performs executions in Melaten and Deutz, he receives extra expenses for hay for his horse, and nothing else"

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1440491

[locke128]

You do realize the Anasazi were civilized, right?

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('locke128', 'Y')ou do realize the Anasazi were civilized, right?

[locke128]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat is your definition of civilized?

[yeahbut]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', ' ')45. Should, however, a person be tortured in both degrees of torture, the executioner is to get for both degrees performed at the same time, set the limbs afterward and for the use of the salve, for all this he should be paid. 6r 0a

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')erhaps most revealing of all is a story related by the distinguished anthropologist Jared Diamond from the University of California, Los Angeles, in his most recent book, Guns, Germs and Steel. He tells of boatloads of Maori warriors landing on Rekohu (Chatham Islands), 500 miles east of New Zealand, in 1835 and announcing that the local Moriori people were now their slaves. Without waiting for a response, they set upon the islanders. "They killed hundreds of Morioris, cooked and ate many of the bodies, and enslaved all the others, killing most of them over the next few years," writes Diamond. He quotes one Maori who justified this savagery by saying: "No one escaped. But what of that? It was in accordance with our custom."

[btu2012]

And here is more evidence in favor of my statement that most ideologues are motivated by an internal conflict:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BO', 'I') imagine of course you are a well fed middle/upper middle class white man or woman, probably man, since white women are a bit more coherent than white men, but I also imagine you have spent your lifetime reaping the benefits of your wonderful civilization and of course are the first to defend it.

[threadbear]

I see by the lack of response to your last few posts, that they have conceded. You made your points and underlined them with diligence and supporting info of a highly credible nature. Good for you.

Years ago, I had a friend who "dissapproved" of my world view, which is pretty devoid of ideology, and completely devoid of radicalism (I think ) It really bugged her that I didn't believe that all men are rapists, or that the world is in the shape it's in all due to male influence. Women were always victims, in her mind, regardless of what they did or how they behaved. If a woman lied, cheated, stole or murdered, the vague patriarchy was ultimately responsible, not the specific woman.

She eventually told me that she couldn't tolerate being in my company because I didn't extrude my own personal experiences through the narrow gauntlet of feminist ideology. Note--NOT because I criticized her interpretation of HER life, but because I had the nerve to entertain an interpretatation of MY OWN life, that wasn't particularly ideological, in nature.

It was a freeing moment for me. She was an angry chronically depressed person, who had to find a depressing philosophy to match her dark mood and her fundamentalist leanings. I see little difference between her way of thinking, and those of fundamentalist Christians, totalitarian Communists, or Free market Capitalists. The problems are always "out there" and narrowly defined. They are rarely multi-causal, situation specific, and never a consequence of their own rigid belief structure.

ISM'S are PRISONS.

[Elias]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'I') see by the lack of response to your last few posts, that they have conceded.

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Elias', 'F')or the real reasons people gave up here, read their last posts.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Elias', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'I') see by the lack of response to your last few posts, that they have conceded.

[Ferretlover]

Thinking out loud: Some of these posts do sound like a high school debate. A lot of facts, without a lot of Understanding the big picture.
I will give points for making the effort.
But, some of you need to use reasoning to figure out which facts are appropriate to the discussion.

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') will give points for making the effort.

[Ferretlover]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('btu2012', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') will give points for making the effort.

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ferretlover', 'W')hat do you have against picture windows?