[Twilight]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', 'T')he point is it was hard, nasty, dangerous work that required a quality of character (not to mention physical conditioning) largely absent from the present population. You're not likely to find burger flippers, Walmart greeters, cashiers, real estate agents and the other assorted 'service sector' employees that make up - what is it, something like 60%+ of the workforce? - scrambling to live in bunkhouses, breathing silica dust, enduring extended exposure to the elements and sweating their asses off all day long, and the second point is that these are the kinds of conditions that will likely be returning in the not-too-distant future (assuming of course that such a rebuilding effort is even undertaken)...

[wisconsin_cur]

Haven't seen this on any national news.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')HE ONLY BRIDGE ACROSS THE MISSISSIPPI BETWEEN DRESBACH AND WABASHA IS CLOSED. NOBODY KNOWS FOR HOW LONG.
THE MINNESOTA TRANSPORTATION DEPARTMENT SHUT DOWN THE HIGHWAY 43 BRIDGE AT DOWNTOWN WINONA LAST NIGHT BECAUSE OF CONCERNS ABOUT CORROSION ON PARTS OF THE 67-YEAR-OLD STRUCTURE. SOME OF THE GUSSET PLATES ON THE BRIDGE ARE RUSTY. THAT TYPE OF PLATE MAY HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO LAST SUMMER'S INTERSTATE BRIDGE COLLAPSE IN MINNEAPOLIS. UNTIL THE WINONA BRIDGE IS RE-OPENED, DRIVERS NEEDING TO CROSS THE RIVER WILL HAVE TO TRAVEL ABOUT A HALF-HOUR NORTH OR SOUTH TO THE NEAREST BRIDGES IN USE.

[bobaloo]

To actually go back to the subject of the OP, I have to say it's right on the mark. I work every day with the subject of infrastructure, albeit municipal rather than private, and the cities are getting shafted to the point where bankruptcy and disincorporation is going to be the only answer for many in the next 10 years.

The feds and the states keep creating more and more regulations that cities are required to meet, many of which cost huge amounts, that there's no way people are going to be able to pay for it.

In my area right now I am in the process of writing a plan, required by our state DEQ, that tells what we are going to do to reduce the termperature of a river and manage non point source mercury pollution (there isn't any). The mercury issue is a disguise, as they admit there's no real mercury pollution but what they want to regulate is all stormwater, meaning that in a few years they'll be requiring us to capture and treat all stormwater. At that point we'll simply have to shut down the city as there's no way less than 2000 people can pay the $10 - $15 million or so it would cost us to do so. Meanwhile, the same regs say that industrial polluters producing mercury are "expected to abide by voluntary best practices", meaning the regs don't apply to them. We just spend $8 million upgrading our sewer system ($15,000 per household) to meet even more stringent water standards.

A few years ago we did asphalt overlays on the gravel streets in town. By saving money for 10 years we had enough to do that, with asphalt at $22 per ton. The overlays have a life expectancy of 10 years, there's no way in hell we're going to be able to afford to fix them up at that time with asphalt at $100 or $200 per ton, they're just going to have to go back to gravel.

When you drive down the road look at the utility poles and transformers. Check out how many of them are newish versus how many look old and corroded. I talked to a power company guy the other day to said they'd lost a 1mm KVA transformer, they had a replacement on order and it would be 11-12 months to have it built and delivered. Someone could shut the grid down overnight with a few will placed hits to substations, it would take 1-2 years to replace many of the large transformers that are needed for the grid because we don't have the manufacturing capacity any more, they have to be built in China and shipped over.

Cities aren't like the feds, we don't get to print money, we have to operate on a balanced budget each year. In Oregon, we're limited to a 3 percent increase in tax revenue each year by law. Inflation is running 10-20 percent figuring in fuel and everything else, it's simple math that we're going to run out of money at some point. The only thing saving cities the last 10 years has been new construction, with that dying the money pool is going to disappear fast.


This country built a huge, expensive infrastructure during the 40's-70's when we were the leading oil exporter on the planet and rolling in dough. The population has not yet figured out that we're no longer the richest country on earth and still expects the same level of services without having to pay for them. Basically the country as a whole has been operating like a larger version of the individual for the last 30 years, buying crap on credit and living beyond its means. We're about to find out we're not near as rich as we thought we were, and it's going to be very painful for a lot of people.

[Fiddlerdave]

20 years ago, I worked as a Journeyman Boilermaler repairing and doing maintenance on power plants in the midwest. Many of those plants were 30 or 40 years old, and we would joke that there was no original metal, the plant was comprised entirely of weld joints everything had been reworked so many times.

Its amazing to drive out there and see those same plants still in operation decades later. Their inefficiency, unreliability and maintainence costs must be staggering.

Its the same story as how the places like US Steel put their investment money into buying Montgomery Wards retail chain, and letting Asia build the new process plants that efficiently made steel, aluminum and molded metal for the new generation (post 1970) cars, buildings, insudtrial components. The only company in the world that can make a big enough containment for nuclear plants is in Japan!

The USA is an aging and decrepit economy living on the investments of their forbearers.

[vision-master]

Got yer "R" stamp, eh.

[roccman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobaloo', 'T')o actually go back to the subject of the OP, I have to say it's right on the mark.

[Fiddlerdave]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'G')ot yer "R" stamp, eh.

[jbeckton]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('roccman', '
')Matt Simmons seems to align with this "issue" too...fact...he came out with a presentation a few weeks back that, among other things, 100 TRILLION is needed to "fix" this mess...

[HEADER_RACK]

This is my field of expertise in the offshore oil industry.
Let me give you the scope of the problem of rust in the GoM. One client of ours (one of the majors) they currently have 12million square feet of structure that needs addressing do to corrosion. We are currently able to address approx. 900,000 square feet a year at a cost of 14 to 18 dollars per square foot. A perfect coating will last around 7 years before it needs to be readdressed, most times it will last around 5. Do the math. It's a losing battle. They are mainly conncerned about not letting it get any worse more than they are about getting it under control and this is a company that takes it corrosion very seriously.

[jbeckton]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fiddlerdave', '
')But I do have some wonder how well many modern workers would retrain to it. The job would continue on a cold day until the temperature hit -20 F (at ground level - often it was 2 to 5 degrees colder at the top with much more wind) and no matter how fast you welded, it did not seem a single degree of heat would get to you from a very hot sheet of steel inches away. (OTOH, in the summer, that hot sheet would feel like an open oven). Possibly another job "Americans won't do".

[IgnoranceIsBliss]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('roccman', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')
Are you seriously arguing that it is impossible to teach a McDonald's fry cook or a salesman at Best Buy how to put up power lines? Or that the laid off factory workers can't be retooled to build wind turbines and bridges?

[Novus]

It is not so much that America's infrastructure is old and rusted. The problem is that the industry that built most of this stuff no longer exists so we can't make the replacements even if we wanted to. I liken this to how the Romans forgot how to make concrete and how their legacy of aqueducts, bridges, and roads all fell into disuse within a generation or two after the Empire was no more.

Not long ago I visited the new Costco they built in town and when I was in the parking lot I noticed a sewer cover and it said "Made in India" on it. I am like you got to be fuk-ing kidding me. We can't even make sewer covers anymore. We are so doomed. With that I bought an extra bag of rice for my doomsday preparations.

[wisconsin_cur]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HEADER_RACK', 'T')his is my field of expertise in the offshore oil industry.
Let me give you the scope of the problem of rust in the GoM. One client of ours (one of the majors) they currently have 12million square feet of structure that needs addressing do to corrosion. We are currently able to address approx. 900,000 square feet a year at a cost of 14 to 18 dollars per square foot. A perfect coating will last around 7 years before it needs to be readdressed, most times it will last around 5. Do the math. It's a losing battle. They are mainly conncerned about not letting it get any worse more than they are about getting it under control and this is a company that takes it corrosion very seriously.

[Mastodon]

All current infrastructure was built with readily available high eroi fossil fuel energy. This energy source is on the decline. To replace the aging infrastructure whilst supporting the existing population we will need another high eroi energy source that is readily available, it will not be a shortage of workers that kills us (a shortage of humans!!!!). As there is no equivalent (think transport or mining) replacement for high eroi fossil fuels the future is inevitable, lots less humans and a collapsing infrastructure.

[HEADER_RACK]

I think I need another beer...

Thats nothing. Another client (another major) has a different approach. Cover it up! When you see rust build up on steel,it penetrates 1/8 into the steel than whats on top.For example if you see an inch of rust ontop a lip of steel it has dug down and ate away 1/8 inch of steel from the wall thickness. Their plan is to remove the rust that is visible and smooth it out to where it's close to the same level as the regular steel and coat over it. Looks good form a distance,but it's like putting perfume on a pig.If you don't remove all the rust your not doing squat.

[Fiddlerdave]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('IgnoranceIsBliss', ' ')So these people have to pass a test of algebra, reading, and spatial ability? Forget it! Add in a high school diploma and I'm afraid you have seriously winnowed the field of candidates down to the bare bones. BTW, my professional background is in teaching and corporate recruiting for entry level positions.

I'm sure we could find plenty of folks to work the shovels but rebuilding our infrastructure for the future is certainly going to require a lot more than that.

[Novus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fiddlerdave', '
')Rebuilding our infrastructure will probably occur when the Chinese come over with complete crews and engineering design, and offer to loan us back our dollars to do the work and BTW own the resulting infrastructure with accompanying eternal tolls, "just sign on the dotted line. "

[Fiddlerdave]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GASMON', '
')Their lies the answer - cheap foreign labour. We have the poles, you have the spicks - get em to earn their stay.

Gasmon