[Denny]

I just read yet another article on CNN Moiney about this issue, that Ford (or its big 3 counterparts) can't seem to make money on smaller vehicles, they only kbnow how to make it on the big stuff.

But, I read this same stuff, believe it or not, 35 years ago! (Man, I am getting old, glad I still have hair.) I also used to read way back then, about how employee benefits were going to kill the big three. But, they puttered along for three decades before tackling that one.

This is a business that can't seem to learn or apply new things. If the auto industry was a school, Ford, GM and Chrysler would be in the remedial ed classes.

How can it be that Honda and Toyota and Nissan can make small cars in North America at a profit, but Detroit can't? I remember hearing it said that mini cars have just as much cost. That is crap.

Definitely, the costs are less. Even if they had the same number of parts, the number of attching points are less. Less welds, less fuids to fill, less of most everything, even whewel nuts. But, the vehicle assembly cost is jsut the most visible tip of the cost iceburg. The remainder of the cost picture is even more proportional to the mass of the item. Half size ties cost half as much to make. A short wiring harness is cheaper than along one. All common sense.

Maybe Detoit needs some smarter, and more diligent managers and executives who think before they speakd and act on what they speak. This is America's most important business, and its looks like its being run bush league.

See CNN Money: "Bad News for Detoit"

"But the real problem for the Big Three is that they have far more trouble making money on the sale of small cars. Their Japanese rivals, on the other hand, are able to turn a profit despite the lower prices.

[mefistofeles]

Its hard to have any sympathy for these companies. With gasoline prices being what they are I as a consumer do not need an SUV that gets 14 mpg.

In fact I'm thinking about getting Prius myself. Why is it so difficult for these companies to build a geo metro that will meet modern safety standards?

Personally I think these companies really need to look at de-contenting automobiles and get back to the basics in order to build cost effective high fuel efficiency vehicles.

[Denny]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WisJim', 'l')et's see....Ford wants to sell more vehicles, people are interested in smaller more fuel efficient vehicles (but I'm not sure they are actually buying), so Ford advertises the full size F150F250 line of trucks, ignores the smaller Ranger pickup trucks, and will discontinue making the smaller Ranger (which has been getting bigger over the years.) So, if people, like myself and my friends, want to buy a smaller pickup truck, we will no longer have a Ford option, unless they sell an even larger Ranger-model truck which may be made in Indonesia or some other place outside of the USA or Canada.

[BrazilianPO]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') car dealership in the United States is offering a free handgun with every vehicle sold.

[MrBill]

Ford and GM have only themselves to blame for the pension crisis. They underpaid into those plans when they were profitable, and raided those plans to make quarterly targets when they were not so profitable. To blame it on retired workers now is a little unfair. Not too mention their global buying spree of luxury car brands that they proceeded to mismanage, and just ended up dilluting those brands losing even more money. Just poor management.

The one and only new vehicle I ever owned was a 1987 Toyota 4-wheel drive pick-up truck with a 5-speed manual transmission. We drove that truck into the dirt. Over 300.000 kms on it before the engine siezed. My step-father did not notice the idiot light on I guess? But in any case we were going to put a new engine in it, but it was so badly rusted it would have been like putting lipstick on a pig.

When it was new it used to get 30-mpg on the highway. And that was over 20-years ago. By the time it died it certainly did not owe us anything. We have been a Toyota family ever since.

My mom bought a F350 4x4 diesel with duallies to pull the fifth-wheel. Well, one trip to Arizona from Alberta and now they fly on seat sales. No more pulling the trailer with that beast now that diesel is northwards of $4 per gallon.

Talk about a useless purchase. The fifth-wheel sits down at the lake all summer, and the F350 in the driveway. They drive the Toyota Matrix everywhere instead.

I would like to buy a used Toyota Rav4 here, but I do not drive enough to justify it, so I get by in my little Honda Civic. 4-cyllinder manual 5-speed. Less than a tank of gas each month. I should just ride my bike to the office instead.

Everyone else here drives brand new luxury SUVs and sportscars. Mercedes CLK convertibles. Porsche Cayannes. BMW 5, 6, 7 series. Etc. All bought on credit. The BMW service manager told me that in many cases they cannot even afford the scheduled maintenance over and above their car payments. Not too mention many sold their family's land and farms to buy those cars and now they rent. In another 5-years or so all they will own is a used car in bad need of repair, and then they will probably blame all the foreigners like me for stealing their land? Isn't that the way it usually goes? Find a foreign scapegoat ; - ))

[Twilight]

Ford makes good cars. They just do not make them in America for Americans. Instead they push trucks at a loss while bearing crippling legacy costs.

They would have a better chance of survival if they left that market entirely. Doing no business is better than paying people to buy your product, and being saved when no-one wants to buy it even below cost. You have to wonder what they are getting out of it. What price are they planning to place on political correctness? $10bn this year? Next year?

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'F')ord and GM have only themselves to blame for the pension crisis. They underpaid into those plans when they were profitable, and raided those plans to make quarterly targets when they were not so profitable. To blame it on retired workers now is a little unfair. Not too mention their global buying spree of luxury car brands that they proceeded to mismanage, and just ended up dilluting those brands losing even more money. Just poor management.

[MrBill]

You may be right, cube? Sometimes it is more important to be lucky than good! Unfortunately, bad things happen to good people, and that is a shame!
Actually, GM (Opel) and Ford have a good line-up of cars here in Europe. I cannot understand why they do not offer them in the N. American market? Probably for the same reason that VW/Audi do not offer their smaller, more efficient engines models in N. American either?

I have never believed much in conspiracy theories, but one has to wonder about the unholy trioka between Detroit-Houston-Washington?

UPDATE: The American way of life is not negotiable!
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')ownsizing also has its drawbacks. For starters, U.S. highway statistics show the smallest cars have death rates 2.5 times higher than the biggest. What's more, wimpy engines often (under) power small cars and that's a drawback many Americans won't abide. I recently drove the diminutive Smart car for a week. While it's certainly cute, its puny 70-horsepower engine and slow-shifting transmissions made me feel like Fred Flintstone could outrun me. That might be enough power for twisty Old World roads, but here in America, we have a need for speed. "Going zero to 60 in 15 seconds doesn't fit the average American consumers idea of mobility today," says Reinert. "That's too doggy."

[emeraldg40]

I have a neice and nephew who worked for Toyota in Canada and made great money. They said the Lexus comes off the line every 16 seconds and they cant make enough of them for the US. I always just thought since they (Toyota) dont have to pay for medical insurance for their Canadian employees that they had the advantage over anything in Detroit.

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'U')PDATE: The American way of life is not negotiable!
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')ownsizing also has its drawbacks. For starters, U.S. highway statistics show the smallest cars have death rates 2.5 times higher than the biggest. What's more, wimpy engines often (under) power small cars and that's a drawback many Americans won't abide. I recently drove the diminutive Smart car for a week. While it's certainly cute, its puny 70-horsepower engine and slow-shifting transmissions made me feel like Fred Flintstone could outrun me. That might be enough power for twisty Old World roads, but here in America, we have a need for speed. "Going zero to 60 in 15 seconds doesn't fit the average American consumers idea of mobility today," says Reinert. "That's too doggy."

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mefistofeles', 'I')ts hard to have any sympathy for these companies. With gasoline prices being what they are I as a consumer do not need an SUV that gets 14 mpg.
In fact I'm thinking about getting Prius myself. Why is it so difficult for these companies to build a geo metro that will meet modern safety standards?
Personally I think these companies really need to look at de-contenting automobiles and get back to the basics in order to build cost effective high fuel efficiency vehicles.

[mefistofeles]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ow do you feel about an SUV that gets 34 mpg?

[Denny]

The Ford F150 has been the market leader vehicle for a long time, as long as I remember. But, the resdesigned 2009 Ford F150 wi be held off the market to avoid comoeting wiht the exit backlog 2008's.

See Detroit News.

Usually, the auto companies go ahead wiht the new model and just plunge the price on th3 existing inventory to clear it out.

I am not so sure why Ford (and GM) seem to waste so much investment money redesigning the pick-ups, when they are runing low on money.

Any pickups drivers out there? I don't see much user advantages for the redesigns. Do you? No matter how they slice and dice it, you end up with an 8' long box, 4' between wheel houses in the back and a generally square look and rear wheel drive. Why keep investing more in new tooling, for something that ends up looking and driving so much the same?

[emersonbiggins]

A diesel engine (small Powerstroke - ~4.0L??) for the F-150 would push some units. A nice 1/2-ton pickup would be able to get 25-30 MPG on the highway, easy. Better yet, throw a 2.0L into a new Ranger and get 40 on the highway + much better torque than the 4-banger.

[Twilight]

Somewhere along the line, pickup trucks became a fashion accessory.

The Mitsubishi L200 is a particularly embarrassing example. One guy in my street had a late 90s model a while back and by the looks of things used it for its intended purpose, then got rid of it. Some other guy bought a new one recently. It was a completely different animal.

To give you an idea of the difference:

Before.

After.

You have to be kidding me. It's like giving a truck breast implants.

To be fair, I have never driven either, but the fact that these things sit clean and gleaming in suburban driveways and can no longer be seen on building sites tells me everything I need to know about their utility.

[heroineworshipper]

Better make it a long delay.

[mos6507]

When I was growing up, a neighbor of mine had a Chevy Suburban, a 1970s Suburban was a very crude vehicle. There was nothing "sport" about it. I never associated trucks with luxury or fashion and was always baffled at the way the industry went. I really think what people wanted was larger cars but as cars downsized, trucks fell through a legal loophole so people gravitated towards trucks as a big car substitute.

[sicophiliac]

Yeah they can postpone it till 2010 or 2011 when fuel prices are even higher and the economy is even worse. emersonbiggins is right, they should switch to diesel, better torque and the engines last longer. Also it would ween out the drivers who drive a truck to offset lack of manhood from those who genuinely need a large vehicle like that to haul heavy loads or use it for work related purposes.

[Javaman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'W')hen I was growing up, a neighbor of mine had a Chevy Suburban, a 1970s Suburban was a very crude vehicle. There was nothing "sport" about it. I never associated trucks with luxury or fashion and was always baffled at the way the industry went. I really think what people wanted was larger cars but as cars downsized, trucks fell through a legal loophole so people gravitated towards trucks as a big car substitute.

[perdition79]

I'm not surprised Ford is delaying the F-150. On television, they're advertising employee pricing on F-150 through F-350 models. If you stop by a dealership, larger models are being sold nearly at cost, but nobody's buying them.

Our nearby high-pressure volume dealer has been trying to unload pickups everywhere. The few that sell are being restocked with Ford Focus models. One of the salesmen said the only cars selling right now are the Focus and the Taurus.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Twilight', 'T')he Mitsubishi L200 is a particularly embarrassing example. One guy in my street had a late 90s model a while back and by the looks of things used it for its intended purpose, then got rid of it.