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THE Price Gouging Thread

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Price Gouging - Does It Exist? Can it exist?

Postby threadbear » Sat 16 Jun 2007, 15:54:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'O')il isn't the only thing that has gone up in price.
However I guess commodities like corn, wheat, and rice just aren't "sexy" enough to deserve their own conspiracy theories. :roll:

Corn and wheat are linked directly to the price of oil. And with the subsidies and perks provided to the corn ethanol industry, there's plenty of organized opportunism here. Conspiracy? That's a subtle issue mired in semantics.
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Re: Price Gouging - Does It Exist? Can it exist?

Postby AirlinePilot » Sat 16 Jun 2007, 20:08:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'T')he difficulty I have AP, is the idea of the fed stepping in and subsidizing any corporation that has been acting, since the Bush admin took over, like an unregulated monopoly. And I mean unregulated from an anti-competetive law, point of view, not from an environmental or safety perspective.

If you watch the film "Who killed the electric car", it seems obvious that both the car industry and it's sister, the oil industry, are sympatico, and will, at the last moment cry for even more govt help. A great head scratching "how could we have known?" moment will follow. And that will be utter B.S.

And btw, am not anti-American. When I see how your country is being gutted and many jobs outsourced by the corporatocracy and 40 million more good jobs set to be outsourced, it makes me ill. This, together with what appears to be an emerging police state is scary, as it doesn't bode well for Canada. We won't be able to maintain an open society, due to proximity.


Unfortunately I agree and your summation of the BS is likely also correct. Its just the way we are going to go, not enough forethought or planning. The typical reactionary apparatus will be subsidies and tax breaks as long as that works. I doubt it will work for very long, maybe a few years and then even that wont sustain things. Not enough folks concerned enough early enough to do any real good. Reminds me a lot of what I saw in the film Children of men" Its going to overwhelm us I think.

Far,far too many people at all levels, especially here in the US, stuck inside this unsustainable train wreck. I think a lot of folks have an inkling something is up, but for us few who have that small amount of foreknowledge, its going to be very very frustrating.

By the way, it doesnt need to be the Bush admin it would happen with anyone , they dont know any other way. You see both parties here are innefectual anymore due to the circus that has become our politics. Just more fuel on the fire Im afraid.

Can you tell I'm not optimistic? I knew that you could!
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Re: Price Gouging - Does It Exist? Can it exist?

Postby cube » Sun 17 Jun 2007, 05:29:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '.').. Corn and wheat are linked directly to the price of oil. And with the subsidies and perks provided to the corn ethanol industry, there's plenty of organized opportunism here.
There is no shortage of people / groups who will not hesitate to use "foul play" to make a profit. Nobody here is naive enough to NOT be perfectly aware of this.
However I've noticed something. Every serious example of "foul play" /(unfair advantage) has one thing in common! There is no secret. For example, there is nothing hidden about the US government's subsidy for corn. It's got more frontal exposure then a bad porno video.

Because of this, whenever I hear some half cracked story about a "closed door meeting" or how some entity supposedly "controls" prices but it's a "secret" ---> excuse me if I roll my eyes at the sheer ludicrousness of such an idea. :roll:
-----
Now lets get back to the original question. "Price Gouging - Does It Exist?" When I think of "Price gouging" I imagine a group of competitors who come together to make a deal to either "fix" prices or production. *delicate cough*
OPEC is the only thing that fits that description.
However IMHO I think the recent success of OPEC has more to do with a sincere shortage of excess production capacity and a rise in demand from Chindia rather then "cooperation amongst member nations".
Yeah I know that story/ explanation doesn't sound very exciting and it probably doesn't make for profitable television either.
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Re: Price Gouging - Does It Exist? Can it exist?

Postby threadbear » Sun 17 Jun 2007, 13:30:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '.')..Corn and wheat are linked directly to the price of oil. And with the subsidies and perks provided to the corn ethanol industry, there's plenty of organized opportunism here.
There is no shortage of people / groups who will not hesitate to use "foul play" to make a profit. Nobody here is naive enough to NOT be perfectly aware of this.
However I've noticed something. Every serious example of "foul play" /(unfair advantage) has one thing in common! There is no secret. For example, there is nothing hidden about the US government's subsidy for corn. It's got more frontal exposure then a bad porno video.
Because of this, whenever I hear some half cracked story about a "closed door meeting" or how some entity supposedly "controls" prices but it's a "secret" ---> excuse me if I roll my eyes at the sheer ludicrousness of such an idea. :roll:
-------
Now lets get back to the original question. "Price Gouging - Does It Exist?" When I think of "Price gouging" I imagine a group of competitors who come together to make a deal to either "fix" prices or production. *delicate cough* OPEC is the only thing that fits that description.
However IMHO I think the recent success of OPEC has more to do with a sincere shortage of excess production capacity and a rise in demand from Chindia rather then "cooperation amongst member nations". Yeah I know that story/ explanation doesn't sound very exciting and it probably doesn't make for profitable television either.

Would you like me to post links to articles about cases where companies were fined for doing just that? Archer Daniel Midlands springs to mind, right off the top of my head. If these things never occurred why are there laws to deal with them?
Do you want me to do that? I'd be happy to oblige.

And also, when the government fails to enforce laws already on the books, regarding anti-competetive practise (allowing unprededented numbers of mergers and acquisitions to take place), they can end up being indirectly complicit in gouging. Whether you call this a conspiracy, or not, is again, a question of semantics.
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Re: Price Gouging - Does It Exist? Can it exist?

Postby cube » Sun 17 Jun 2007, 17:19:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '.')..Would you like me to post links to articles about cases where companies were fined for doing just that? Archer Daniel Midlands springs to mind, right off the top of my head. If these things never occurred why are there laws to deal with them?
Do you want me to do that? I'd be happy to oblige.
Perhaps I should clarify my position.
Do I believe there are unfair institutions and corporations engaging in foul play? Of course!
examples of "foul play" IMHO:
1) The 401K system is a classic example of corporate welfare.
2) Deducting interest rates from home mortgages was for the benefit of corporate America, NOT the home "owner".
3) Public loans for the construction of private sports stadiums.
What's the point in posting links of foul play when we already know the world is a jacked up place...or did you have something different in mind?

However I do NOT believe in the "closed door meeting" / "conspiracy" theory of how the world works. Why? Because a conspiracy theory by definition requires a hidden truth. There's nothing hidden in this world today neither your IP address or the president's sex life. The only way to keep something a secret these days in the information age is if the story is so ridiculously boring nobody wants to make a website about it and if it did exist nobody would bother reading about it.

As for illegal business practices. It never works (in the long term). You know why?....because whenever you start making good $$$ people get jealous and there's no shortage of people who would "rat on you". Besides there is no story that the public LOVES more so then a person "abusing" their high position getting "taken down".
Supposed price gouging is the last thing I'm worried about right now. I'm a lot more afraid of the public's ignorance. :wink:
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Re: Price Gouging - Does It Exist? Can it exist?

Postby threadbear » Sun 17 Jun 2007, 19:00:27

It astonishes me, Cube, that you think conspiracies don't happen. They're not uncommon and if you read the business pages of the most conservative newspaper, you become quite familiar with them. In truth, you don't read them, do you?
There seem to be a lot of corporations actually being charged with conspiracy, for conspiracies not to exist. Just off the top of my head.
link

And more to the point, real behind closed doors stuff.
HealthSouth, a leading HMO....
According to the information, members of HealthSouth’s accounting staff would meet to discuss ways to artificially inflate HealthSouth’s earnings in order to meet Wall Street expectations. These meetings were known as “family” meetings and the attendees were known as the “family.” At the meetings, “family” members discussed how members of the accounting staff would falsify HealthSouth’s books to fill the “gap” or “hole” and meet the desired earnings. The fraudulent postings used to fill the “gap” or “hole” were referred to as the “dirt.” link

Oh, and perhaps you should drop this judge a note and let him know conspiracies don't happen:
"Monsanto et al . . . Judge Allows Antitrust Case Against Seed Producers" by David Barboza New York Times 24 Sep 2003
CHICAGO, Sept. 23—A federal judge on Friday let proceed an antitrust case that accused the Monsanto Company and other big agricultural seed giants of conspiring to control the world's market in genetically modified crops.

But Judge Sippel allowed the antitrust portion of the case to proceed, possibly setting the stage for a court battle over whether the world's biggest producers of agricultural seeds got together in the late 1990's to fix prices and control the market for those valuable biotechnology seeds, which are now planted on more than 100 million acres worldwide. link

Archer Daniel Midlands? “Rats In The Grain” is a 400+ page study of the trial of three ADM executives arising from the 1990s price fixing scandal that saw the company plead guilty and be fined $US100 million (followed by similar scale fines in Canada and Europe, also for price fixing). The company had secretly met with its Japanese “competitors” and rigged the price of lysine, an animal feed additive. The same happened with citric acid and high fructose corn syrup, but no charges were ever brought in relation to them. Following the settlement of the civil case, three senior executives – Michael Andreas, Terry Wilson and Mark Whitacre – faced criminal charges arising out of the same international price fixing conspiracy
link
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Re: Price Gouging - Does It Exist? Can it exist?

Postby cube » Sun 17 Jun 2007, 20:34:30

threadbear, I never said there weren't people out there who "attempt" to conspire. There's a difference between attempting and keeping it up. The problem with "price gouging" is you start making more enemies then friends real quick. No matter how powerful a person/corporation/or even an alliance of nations....how long can such a plan last?
The fact that you were able to produce these links suggest somebody got their ass busted. :P
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Re: Price Gouging - Does It Exist? Can it exist?

Postby threadbear » Sun 17 Jun 2007, 22:44:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 't')hreadbear, I never said there weren't people out there who "attempt" to conspire. There's a difference between attempting and keeping it up. The problem with "price gouging" is you start making more enemies then friends real quick. No matter how powerful a person/corporation/or even an alliance of nations....how long can such a plan last? The fact that you were able to produce these links suggest somebody got their ass busted. :P

The fact that I produced these links, obviates your argument. You DID state that conspiracies aren't a possibility. We can construe from those who WERE caught that there are others who are not. With Katrina like price gouging, you make enemies sure and any collusion in pricing conspiracy might stand a greater chance of being exposed, by the ill will generated.

But the subtler forms, where prices are slowly ratcheted up, can easily evade detection. Conspiracy to collude to price fix is a very difficult thing to prove. Often you have to wire informants and plants as there aren't any minutes kept at these meetings. Recent tech innovations, like email, help too. People tend to be freer and easier sending email.
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Re: Price Gouging - Does It Exist? Can it exist?

Postby cube » Sun 17 Jun 2007, 23:51:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '.').. The fact that I produced these links, obviates your argument. ...
Does that mean I lost this debate? :wink:
Anyhow like I said before, I'm not worried about price gouging.
Besides look at it this way. There's enough fools on this planet that an unscrupulous person does NOT need to resort to illegal measures to make a quick buck off someone else's expense....there are perfectly legal means. People who resort to illegal means either got too stupid or too greedy and in the end they get what they deserve.
-------
Getting back to oil refineries because we ALL know how sexy that business has recently become there's a "rumor" floating around that all these maintenance shut downs are a ploy to decrease refining capacity and thus fatten up the profit margins.
On a scale of 1 to 5 in believability I give that a 1.8)
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Don't worry, it's ok, it's just gouging by big oil!.

Postby something_awfull » Sun 25 May 2008, 21:06:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut across the world, 86 million barrels of oil are produced every day, which at the moment is sufficient - not least because consumption in America, which burns a quarter of the world's supply every day, is actually declining
Alarmists also say that the world's oil supplies have passed their "peak", that the world has consumed half of all its oil and that the remaining one trillion barrels will be gone by 2025. This is quite simply tosh. [...] There is no oil shortage. The fact is that we are all being forced to pay an artificially high price because of a combination of factors. Daily Telegraph

Yep, greedy oil companies, speculators and market manipulation by OPEC.
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Re: Don't worry, it's ok, it's just gouging by big oil!.

Postby mmasters » Sun 25 May 2008, 21:26:14

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Re: Don't worry, it's ok, it's just gouging by big oil!.

Postby something_awfull » Sun 25 May 2008, 21:31:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'M')an. Do you have a lot to learn. Got diapers :razz:

I was trying to be sarcastic, but I don't think it came across :razz: It's the moron in the article making those claims, not me :)
I'm actually playing "A Crude Awakening" tomorrow night, hopefully some will go away with an education.
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Re: Don't worry, it's ok, it's just gouging by big oil!.

Postby drgoodword » Sun 25 May 2008, 21:37:23

I think this article gets the award for least-researched piece of the year.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o throughout the pain remember two things: all price bubbles burst, and there are still vast untapped oil fields that will supply the world's needs for centuries to come.

Centuries. Not even Yergin would claim that.
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Re: Don't worry, it's ok, it's just gouging by big oil!.

Postby kpeavey » Sun 25 May 2008, 22:03:10

If the journalist were to post something like that in here, he'd be stomped on so bad he'd have to go back to serving hamburgers, giving up writing altogether
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--for ever."
-George Orwell, 1984
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twenty centuries of stony sleep were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle, and what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
-George Yeats
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Re: Don't worry, it's ok, it's just gouging by big oil!.

Postby Precipice » Sun 25 May 2008, 23:00:48

Ah the Daily Telegraph, Sydney's finest shit-rag; it is to Newspapers what McDonalds is to food (on a good day!). It's also owned by Rupert Murdoch of Fox News fame, don't cha know?
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Re: Don't worry, it's ok, it's just gouging by big oil!.

Postby GeoJAP » Mon 26 May 2008, 00:55:17

So SomethingAwful has invaded the PO forums. SA, oh my.
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Re: Don't worry, it's ok, it's just gouging by big oil!.

Postby Twilight » Mon 26 May 2008, 18:56:46

Wow, every single point was an opinion the author failed to fact-check.
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Re: THE Price Gouging Thread

Postby Tanada » Fri 12 Jul 2013, 10:12:01

Does anyone have a reliable formula for the ratio of Crude spot WTI price and wholesale price paid by the retailer? Retail price has taxes added to it so it will change state to state or even county by county in some cases.

Now that WTI is back in the low triple digits again the retail price doesn't seem to be reflecting it like I expect it too. How long will it take for the increase to be reflected at my local station?
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Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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