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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 17:06:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')Ludi, you have a kind of co-pay situation with your insurance?


There's a co-pay, but my deductible is so high ($5000.00) I always end up paying the entire cost.


Wow, a 5,000.00 deductible! Have you considered Cuba? :lol:
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby jlw61 » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 17:13:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')Ludi, you have a kind of co-pay situation with your insurance?


There's a co-pay, but my deductible is so high ($5000.00) I always end up paying the entire cost.


Wow, a 5,000.00 deductible! Have you considered Cuba? :lol:


I would seriously consider such a policy. If I break a leg, I'll be glad to pay. If I end up in the hospital, I'll be glad to pay the $5,000. That is $5000 per year, not incident, correct?

At a $5,000 per year deductible I would end up saving $3,500 for every year nothing major happens. We'd also be able to put my wife on that plan since the last time she spent $5,000 in a single year was 12 years ago. She's not insured right now because we can't afford the $12k - $14k yearly premiums for her individual policy.

Get government out of the health care industry and this might happen for nearly everyone.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 17:21:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', ' ')In Canada, pressures that were considered within normal range, last year, are now considered outside of normal range, and medication is urged, regardless of age. My mother is being urged to get her pressure down to 120/80. She is, at the same time, experiencing weakness in her legs, a bit of vertigo, on and off, etc...She's been checked for multi-infarc syndrome, doesn't appear to have it. We'll definitely know more in the next few months.


Hypertension in the US is treated according to a set of guidelines known as JNC that are issued every few years by the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute. We're currently on JNC7 that was published in 2003. link

Under JNC7, "Normal" is a blood pressure less than 120/80. "Pre-hypertension" is 120-139/80-89. Hypertension is anything 140/90 and above. The risk of blood pressure related complications in people with pre-hypertension goes up, but not enough to warrant medicines. In people with chronic kidney disease or diabetes, the risk of kidney failure is so high that it's recommended to push them further down to 130/80.

It's a fine line to walk with older folks. People who have run high blood pressures for a long time get physiologically accustomed to it. It's important to go slowly when lowering their pressure to try and avoid low blood pressure symptoms of the type you're describing. As you get their pressure down, though, they will get accustomed to having a normal pressure and will stop having symptoms. People with heart failure frequently run pressures in the range of 90/40 without having symptoms. Never the less, at least in the US, the treatment target for medications is like I said 140/90 for most people. Prehypertensives are encouraged to use diet, excercise, etc to get down to 120/80, but you wouldn't want to use meds to get there.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his article is kind of interesting. I don't know if it's relevant or not. It might be a load of rubbish. You'll know better than I.
Interesting. I'll take a look.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 17:24:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')Ludi, you have a kind of co-pay situation with your insurance?


There's a co-pay, but my deductible is so high ($5000.00) I always end up paying the entire cost.


Wow, a 5,000.00 deductible! Have you considered Cuba? :lol:


I would seriously consider such a policy. If I break a leg, I'll be glad to pay. If I end up in the hospital, I'll be glad to pay the $5,000. That is $5000 per year, not incident, correct?

At a $5,000 per year deductible I would end up saving $3,500 for every year nothing major happens. We'd also be able to put my wife on that plan since the last time she spent $5,000 in a single year was 12 years ago. She's not insured right now because we can't afford the $12k - $14k yearly premiums for her individual policy.

Get government out of the health care industry and this might happen for nearly everyone.


Government isn't the largest part of the problem here. Insurance works best as a highly regulated monopoly. You need the benefits of economy of scale to offset the exorbitant cost. That's what universal coverage CAN provide. Break it up and you have a number of weaker unregulated players who can be wiped out if they take on too many, god forbid, sick people.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 17:31:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', ' ')She's not insured right now because we can't afford the $12k - $14k yearly premiums for her individual policy.


Unfortunately it doesn't look like Virginia has a Risk Pool. But the Risk Pool is for people who are uninsurable under other plans, not for people who are simply not able to afford other plans. I'm surprised there is no health insurance available for less than $12K in your state.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 18:29:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'G')overnment isn't the largest part of the problem here. Insurance works best as a highly regulated monopoly. You need the benefits of economy of scale to offset the exorbitant cost. That's what universal coverage CAN provide.


IMHO, both insurance and single payer systems are ultimately just a shell game. The problem is ultimately that we all want healthcare that few of us can afford. Insurance only works to distribute the risk of a very unlikely event onto a group of people. If everyone runs up a bunch of money on their insurance every year, it's no longer insurance. It's just a middle man paying your medical bill (after keeping half for themselves). Single payer is only different in that governments are far more inefficient so they keep 2/3 instead of 1/2. The reason other countries have more efficient healthcare than we do is that they focus more money on primary care offices and less on ICUs, specialty operating suites, and whiz-bang wonder drugs. You can shuffle a million ways who pays your healthcare expenses and how much cut they take out. Until you resign yourself to changing what your money is being spent on, nothing is going to change.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 18:46:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'G')overnment isn't the largest part of the problem here. Insurance works best as a highly regulated monopoly. You need the benefits of economy of scale to offset the exorbitant cost. That's what universal coverage CAN provide.


IMHO, both insurance and single payer systems are ultimately just a shell game. The problem is ultimately that we all want healthcare that few of us can afford. Insurance only works to distribute the risk of a very unlikely event onto a group of people. If everyone runs up a bunch of money on their insurance every year, it's no longer insurance. It's just a middle man paying your medical bill (after keeping half for themselves). Single payer is only different in that governments are far more inefficient so they keep 2/3 instead of 1/2. The reason other countries have more efficient healthcare than we do is that they focus more money on primary care offices and less on ICUs, specialty operating suites, and whiz-bang wonder drugs. You can shuffle a million ways who pays your healthcare expenses and how much cut they take out. Until you resign yourself to changing what your money is being spent on, nothing is going to change.


The economics of insurance and infrastructure services is simply different, than other forms of business. Our system, though woefully lacking in some regards is more carefully monitored for financial abuses, and will apply brakes to unnecessary running up of costs. You WILL not get the whiz bang wonder drugs, unless the doctor can prove that the cheaper out of patent drug isn't as effective.

There is such a hyper focus on keeping costs down, here in Canada, we could use more hospital beds.

I am with you on ballistic medicine, though. The magic bullet, going for the cure, rather than arresting development or preventing it in the first place, with better primary care, is essential. And people, as they get older have to be willing to exit gracefully. That's where heroin comes in, or will come in, in the future. Deal with the physical AND psychic pain of terminal illness and death, and get people out of ICU the humane way.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby jlw61 » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 19:07:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'G')overnment isn't the largest part of the problem here. Insurance works best as a highly regulated monopoly. You need the benefits of economy of scale to offset the exorbitant cost. That's what universal coverage CAN provide. Break it up and you have a number of weaker unregulated players who can be wiped out if they take on too many, god forbid, sick people.


So the health care industry will provide the best benefits at the lowest cost as a monopoly???? 8O

My mind reels at the sudden paradigm shift. Free markets and competition are all a scam... quick call Michael Moore and tell him I apologize!

Puleez! :razz:

Show me one industry that works best as a monopoly. Just one example! And if you try to say Major League Baseball I'll laugh in your face! :lol:

Monopolies, especially government monopolies are destroyers of wealth, innovation and service. A monopoly exists simply to perpetuate the monopoly at the expense of he consumer...

Hey, kinda like government!
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 19:33:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'G')overnment isn't the largest part of the problem here. Insurance works best as a highly regulated monopoly. You need the benefits of economy of scale to offset the exorbitant cost. That's what universal coverage CAN provide. Break it up and you have a number of weaker unregulated players who can be wiped out if they take on too many, god forbid, sick people.


So the health care industry will provide the best benefits at the lowest cost as a monopoly???? 8O

My mind reels at the sudden paradigm shift. Free markets and competition are all a scam... quick call Michael Moore and tell him I apologize!

Puleez! :razz:

Show me one industry that works best as a monopoly. Just one example! And if you try to say Major League Baseball I'll laugh in your face! :lol:

Monopolies, especially government monopolies are destroyers of wealth, innovation and service. A monopoly exists simply to perpetuate the monopoly at the expense of he consumer...

Hey, kinda like government!


Yup, REGULATED monopoly. Airlines as regulated oligopolies, provided better service. Remember the good old days? Phone companies, as a regulated monopoly, where I live, was cheaper for the consumer and provided a better than living wage for the employee.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 19:42:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'T')he economics of insurance and infrastructure services is simply different, than other forms of business. Our system, though woefully lacking in some regards is more carefully monitored for financial abuses, and will apply brakes to unnecessary running up of costs. You WILL not get the whiz bang wonder drugs, unless the doctor can prove that the cheaper out of patent drug isn't as effective.


Clearly the Canadian system is in every way superior to the US system, but.....the US is not Canada. Anyone who thinks that single payer healthcare is the solution to our woes, need only look at New Orleans. Medicare and Medicaid, I promise you, make FEMA look the shining star of competence and efficiency. It would be cheaper for me to see medicaid patients for free than to try to convince the bureaucrats to pay me for my services. Getting a claim paid probably takes me 3 hours on the phone fighting with medicaid for each hour I spend seeing one of their patients. I still have medicaid claims from last September that they haven't gotten around to paying. They are so atrocious that most physicians in this state, me included now, have stopped taking medicaid. I seriously think that if single payer healthcare comes to the US, I will either emigrate or find a new profession.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby jlw61 » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 20:40:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'G')overnment isn't the largest part of the problem here. Insurance works best as a highly regulated monopoly. You need the benefits of economy of scale to offset the exorbitant cost. That's what universal coverage CAN provide.


IMHO, both insurance and single payer systems are ultimately just a shell game. The problem is ultimately that we all want healthcare that few of us can afford. Insurance only works to distribute the risk of a very unlikely event onto a group of people. If everyone runs up a bunch of money on their insurance every year, it's no longer insurance. It's just a middle man paying your medical bill (after keeping half for themselves). Single payer is only different in that governments are far more inefficient so they keep 2/3 instead of 1/2. The reason other countries have more efficient healthcare than we do is that they focus more money on primary care offices and less on ICUs, specialty operating suites, and whiz-bang wonder drugs. You can shuffle a million ways who pays your healthcare expenses and how much cut they take out. Until you resign yourself to changing what your money is being spent on, nothing is going to change.


However, since the insurance industry is a multi-billion dollar industry with billions in reserve (as mandated by law) then we must conclude they are making money. The real question is how can they make money and lower the costs?

The insurance company does not necessarily profit by cutting people out of the equation and they certainly do not profit by promising to pay all sorts of benefits mandated by the government. If government says "you must provide these services" and those services are best priced as riders or as add-ons or even as high-risk policies, then you are costing the common person with no problems (the rule, btw, not the exception for those under 65) then you raise the costs needlessly.

Again, as I've stated before, the ability to provide catastrophic health care at a reasonable cost is, for the most part, prohibitive because of state and federal laws, not because it costs a lot to provide it.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 20:50:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'T')he economics of insurance and infrastructure services is simply different, than other forms of business. Our system, though woefully lacking in some regards is more carefully monitored for financial abuses, and will apply brakes to unnecessary running up of costs. You WILL not get the whiz bang wonder drugs, unless the doctor can prove that the cheaper out of patent drug isn't as effective.


Clearly the Canadian system is in every way superior to the US system, but.....the US is not Canada. Anyone who thinks that single payer healthcare is the solution to our woes, need only look at New Orleans. Medicare and Medicaid, I promise you, make FEMA look the shining star of competence and efficiency. It would be cheaper for me to see medicaid patients for free than to try to convince the bureaucrats to pay me for my services. Getting a claim paid probably takes me 3 hours on the phone fighting with medicaid for each hour I spend seeing one of their patients. I still have medicaid claims from last September that they haven't gotten around to paying. They are so atrocious that most physicians in this state, me included now, have stopped taking medicaid. I seriously think that if single payer healthcare comes to the US, I will either emigrate or find a new profession.


Why on earth is medicaid and medicare so screwed up?
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby jlw61 » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 20:57:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'G')overnment isn't the largest part of the problem here. Insurance works best as a highly regulated monopoly. You need the benefits of economy of scale to offset the exorbitant cost. That's what universal coverage CAN provide. Break it up and you have a number of weaker unregulated players who can be wiped out if they take on too many, god forbid, sick people.


So the health care industry will provide the best benefits at the lowest cost as a monopoly???? 8O

My mind reels at the sudden paradigm shift. Free markets and competition are all a scam... quick call Michael Moore and tell him I apologize!

Puleez! :razz:

Show me one industry that works best as a monopoly. Just one example! And if you try to say Major League Baseball I'll laugh in your face! :lol:

Monopolies, especially government monopolies are destroyers of wealth, innovation and service. A monopoly exists simply to perpetuate the monopoly at the expense of he consumer...

Hey, kinda like government!


Yup, REGULATED monopoly. Airlines as regulated oligopolies, provided better service. Remember the good old days? Phone companies, as a regulated monopoly, where I live, was cheaper for the consumer and provided a better than living wage for the employee.


I'm sorry, did you just say the the phone company was cheaper and better as a monopoly??? Wow, you lived in a very special place. My basic phone service cost me about $30 back in the 80's and I had a choice of a phone from the phone company or a phone from the phone company. Plus I paid like 30 cents a minute for my long distance.

Now days, my basic service costs $35.00, I can use any phone I want and I get to call my brother in the Midwest for 10 cents. Plus I have the choice of two different land line companies and about 10 different cell companies.... ah the good ol days of no choice and higher prices.

Airlines... oh yeah, my first air trip... air trips were such a big deal you had to go to an agent... I spent something like $250 to fly from the Midwest to California in the 80's. Got a tiny meal out of it and arrived 6 hours late. Two years ago I made a trip from the east coast to the Midwest, spent $350 and arrived 10 minutes early. No meal, only peanuts and a drink. Only difference is that the $350 last year was worth less than the $250 back in the 80's.

And I flew to NY, a trip that used to cost over a hundred dollars from my airport for less than $70. Yep, definitely lost out there! And the airlines are doing it with more expensive fuel. Jeez, we're getting screwed.


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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 21:07:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', 'H')owever, since the insurance industry is a multi-billion dollar industry with billions in reserve (as mandated by law) then we must conclude they are making money. The real question is how can they make money and lower the costs?


IMHO if you want to reduce costs, the simple answer is to dump it back in the lap of the person getting the care. People that have catastrophic coverage and otherwise pay themselves, I assure you, are most judicious about spending money. People are more than happy to spend $100 a month on acne meds or $1000 on some test as long as "the insurance is paying for it". Self pay patients also radically streamline medical practices. Probably a third of the staff in most medical offices have the sole job of haggling with insurance. The insurance company pays an equal number of people to haggle back. Between them, all these people accomplish absolutely nothing for society except maybe keeping the unemployment rate down.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby jlw61 » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 21:08:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'T')he economics of insurance and infrastructure services is simply different, than other forms of business. Our system, though woefully lacking in some regards is more carefully monitored for financial abuses, and will apply brakes to unnecessary running up of costs. You WILL not get the whiz bang wonder drugs, unless the doctor can prove that the cheaper out of patent drug isn't as effective.


Clearly the Canadian system is in every way superior to the US system, but.....the US is not Canada. Anyone who thinks that single payer healthcare is the solution to our woes, need only look at New Orleans. Medicare and Medicaid, I promise you, make FEMA look the shining star of competence and efficiency. It would be cheaper for me to see medicaid patients for free than to try to convince the bureaucrats to pay me for my services. Getting a claim paid probably takes me 3 hours on the phone fighting with medicaid for each hour I spend seeing one of their patients. I still have medicaid claims from last September that they haven't gotten around to paying. They are so atrocious that most physicians in this state, me included now, have stopped taking medicaid. I seriously think that if single payer healthcare comes to the US, I will either emigrate or find a new profession.


Why on earth is medicaid and medicare so screwed up?


BECAUSE IT'S A FREAKING US GOVERNMENT PROGRAM! And the Canadian system is better??? Locks you into whatever you get and you are at the mercy of a single provider. Hooray for Canada! I'm so happy you love your system! What's your tax rate? You've all bought the party line hook, line, and sinker and no amount of logic, reason, or proof is going to sway you.

Nobody has shown one shred of evidence that the Canadian system is better beyond "but we're all covered" and Michael Moore says so! You all "know" it's better and I've learned when everyone "knows" something, chances are you need to take a second look.

What are you people afraid of discovering? Let's have an honest discussion based on facts, not things "we know must be true".
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 21:10:03

Mind if I jump in with a little text book economics about monopolies?

A monopoly sees a downward sloping demand curve. If they produce more of a product, the price of that product must fall. If I am the only producer of oil, I can choose how much oil to produce and thus determine the price.

Normal producers see a flat demand curve. They can produce as much as they want and it won't affect prices significantly. If I am one of millions of producers of legal services I can't just work less and raise my hourly rate. Someone will take my place and I'll end up selling nothing.

Health care is different.

The ultimate goal of society is for everyone to be healthy, happy, productive, and prosperous.

The ultimate goal of an unethical health care provider is to make everyone as sick as possible without dying in order to sell them as many health services as possible.

A purely unethical health care monopoly would randomly poison people and then sell them the antidote for $100,000/dose. :evil:

People will pay almost anything to save their lives so the demand curve for health services is basically a vertical line. Regardless of price, people will want to be treated.

The best outcome for society would be a system in which preventative care was universal, disease was rare, and if someone did get sick, they could have access to the best health care services known to man so that they could get healthy again and go back to work.

The solution, in my opinion, is simple.

1. Free basic health care for all children. We shouldn't punish kids because their parents are stupid. (I've seen too many sick kids suffer because of their parents' mistakes and only a selfish idiot would oppose vaccinations and check ups for toddlers)

2. Taxpayer funded preventative care for all adults assuming that the adults are at least trying to live a healthy lifestyle. If you do not live a healthy life (smoke crack, drink heavily, eat McBurgers every meal) then you should have to pay for your own preventative care and if you can't, STOP BEING SUCH A SLOB.

3. Taxpayer subsidized medical research. We already have this, it produces lots of miracles, let's not rock the boat.

4. Private health insurance to cover catastrophic illness or accidents. The insurance company will perform a medical examination, determine your risk factors, and sell you an insurance policy based on the likelihood that you will need care. The government could work with insurance companies to provide partially subsidized plans for the poor in order to prevent otherwise healthy 20-year-olds from dying from infection because they can't afford the penicillin.

5. Anyone who wants to can opt out of the government system and pay for their own Mercedes health services. That includes plastic surgery, liposuction, gender reassignment services, in vitro fertilization, viagra, baldness treatments, etc. If you want to fix something that isn't life threatening, feel free to burn a hole in your own wallet but don't expect society to bail you out.

Everyone is healthier in this system and an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure so society spends far fewer resources on health care.

Who wants to make me Health Care Czar?
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby jlw61 » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 21:13:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', 'H')owever, since the insurance industry is a multi-billion dollar industry with billions in reserve (as mandated by law) then we must conclude they are making money. The real question is how can they make money and lower the costs?


IMHO if you want to reduce costs, the simple answer is to dump it back in the lap of the person getting the care. People that have catastrophic coverage and otherwise pay themselves, I assure you, are most judicious about spending money. People are more than happy to spend $100 a month on acne meds or $1000 on some test as long as "the insurance is paying for it". Self pay patients also radically streamline medical practices. Probably a third of the staff in most medical offices have the sole job of haggling with insurance. The insurance company pays an equal number of people to haggle back. Between them, all these people accomplish absolutely nothing for society except maybe keeping the unemployment rate down.


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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 21:18:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'W')hy on earth is medicaid and medicare so screwed up?


The same reason that US soldiers are getting killed in Iraq escorting convoys of empty Haliburton trucks all over the place. The same reason that it took FEMA a week to figure out there was an emergency in New Orleans, when every person in the country not employed by the government knew it was going to happen two days beforehand.

Nepotism, corruption, ineptitude, self-serving bureaucracy. It's the end result forcing 300,000,000 people under a single government which is then selected based on popularity. Nobody cares if anything gets done, as long as they look good for the TV cameras. They can pretend that they're providing healthcare coverage for poor people. They're not. A few doctors are taking care of the poor people out of the goodness of their own hearts, but the congressmen can pretend they are on Meet the Press and that's all that really matters.
"We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby jlw61 » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 21:21:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'M')ind if I jump in with a little text book economics about monopolies?

A monopoly sees a downward sloping demand curve. If they produce more of a product, the price of that product must fall. If I am the only producer of oil, I can choose how much oil to produce and thus determine the price.
...

Everyone is healthier in this system and an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure so society spends far fewer resources on health care.

Who wants to make me Health Care Czar?


The conspiracy theory bit automatically removes you from the list, in my mind, but your ideas have merit on the surface. If you were to do the impossible and somehow make it so that the rules never changed and the government could not "expand coverage" then you have a system that, on the surface, seems to be better than the current system. It would not be ideal, but it would be better than we've got.... I prefer smallpoxgirl's solution, though.
When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 21:22:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', 'B')ECAUSE IT'S A FREAKING US GOVERNMENT PROGRAM! And the Canadian system is better???


It is absolutely better. Canadians pay about 2/3 as much per tax payer for universal coverage as we do for Medicare and Medicaid. They also live two years longer than us on average.

But they're Canadians. We're not. Just because it works in Canada doesn't mean it would work here.
"We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
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