[Specop_007]

Protests?? Revolutions??

Come on. At least here in America it just WONT happen and those that do dont matter.

When you do see a protest its usually people who aare protesting during the day....ie....when "normal people" are at work. Rather invalidates your protest when the majority of the group are a bunch of college kids.

As for revolutions....Our founding fathers built revolution into our system of government. Its called the vote. Dont like the current crop? Vote their ass out. Too many like to dream of exchanging shots with the powers that be, think this will somehow free us.

Shit, we cant even get our people off their ass to vote, you think they are going to become rebels and start shooting??

[Jenab6]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('golem', 'p')ebble
chip off the old block
square center of the divine proportion that eventually becomes round.

[Jenab6]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('highlander', 'A')s long as the protests remain in the "allowed" realms, things will not change. Maybe when we start protesting losses of fundamental freedoms, TPTB will start paying attention. Oh, yes, by protesting, i don't mean walking around with signs and shouting stupid slogans.
How about stepping out of "free speech" zones when the dignitary de jour is in town
how about assembling at the jail when someone is unlawfully "detained"
how about refusing to pay income taxes in protest of the gov'ts meddling in soveriegn nations affairs
how about standing up to local commisioners, or at least voting them out of office, when they invoke emminent domain to enrich some private entity.

Thoreu went to jail for his stands. we (yes, that includes me) aren't really that concerned because it (the loss of freedoms) always happens to "the other guy" (or gals for you PC fascists)

we all have a choice. Do we pay the price or not. Freedom is not free.

And my rant doesn't have much to do with physical collapse.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jenab6', '
')e^(i Q) = cos Q + i sin Q
e^(i pi) = -1
e^(i pi/2) = i

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jenab6', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('highlander', 'A')s long as the protests remain in the "allowed" realms, things will not change. Maybe when we start protesting losses of fundamental freedoms, TPTB will start paying attention. Oh, yes, by protesting, i don't mean walking around with signs and shouting stupid slogans.
How about stepping out of "free speech" zones when the dignitary de jour is in town
how about assembling at the jail when someone is unlawfully "detained"
how about refusing to pay income taxes in protest of the gov'ts meddling in soveriegn nations affairs
how about standing up to local commisioners, or at least voting them out of office, when they invoke emminent domain to enrich some private entity.

Thoreu went to jail for his stands. we (yes, that includes me) aren't really that concerned because it (the loss of freedoms) always happens to "the other guy" (or gals for you PC fascists)

we all have a choice. Do we pay the price or not. Freedom is not free.

And my rant doesn't have much to do with physical collapse.

[Kaj]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '
')Shit, we cant even get our people off their ass to vote, you think they are going to become rebels and start shooting??

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kaj', '
')The American people, in general, have been to the left of both parties for some time. (In general they want job security, cheap healthcare, less war etc.) Every American I have talked to has expressed his/her dissatisfaction with the system.

[Kaj]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kaj', '
')The American people, in general, have been to the left of both parties for some time. (In general they want job security, cheap healthcare, less war etc.) Every American I have talked to has expressed his/her dissatisfaction with the system.

[Kaj]

Ludi--I do not feel as though this has been a dialogue.

I feel a tad attacked, in fact, by your pointed questions. Which is sad as I have always read your posts with interest, and I respect your exertions on your farm, and your environmental ethos.

Where are these questions coming from? Where do you stand on these issues?

Do you have no faith that society can change course?

Was your offer to do take action with me genuine or cynical?

[highlander]

Ludi: not as this time. One political prisoner per family is enough right now.
Jason: not everybody in prison gets gang raped.

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kaj', 'I')'m sure you already know some of my recommendations. Ultimately I think the world elite must be removed from power (and replaced with a more democratic and egalitarian system). The PTB are the promoters of this exhorbitant system.

[PenultimateManStanding]

Jack, Jack, without an ounce of compunction. No remorse, no kids, not a care for what happens. Why do I envy you?

[Kaj]

Yes Jack, your technical observations are mostly correct.

Infiltration is a big problem. In fact, infiltrators have even encouraged certain activities within movements to discredit them, or encouraged splits in the movements.

Despite the difficulties, aren't you ignoring the historical sucess stories?

If the rest of human society was actually as ruthless as you claim to be, then how did women, blacks gain acceptance, the vote and equal rights in the West? Why did certain whites denounce slavery, and help to put an end to it? Why is environmentalism actually an issue in most people's minds? How did the minimum wage get installed?

People came together, fought those struggles in solidarity, and overcame those problems you mentioned. Society is better for it too.

You don't need to point out the cruelty and the difficulties. There are pretty obvious. They are also only half the story. How do you explain human resolve and sympathy which ALSO exists?

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kaj', 'I')f the rest of human society was actually as ruthless as you claim to be, then how did women, blacks gain acceptance, the vote and equal rights in the West?

[Kaj]

I agree that a lot of these changes left the material conditions intact.
I still think they were significant. Many men did not want empowered women or empowered blacks.
But yes, the problem of class, i.e. material disparity remains and is the single biggest challenge humans face, its at the root of so much of the world's problems.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kaj', '
')How do you explain human resolve and sympathy which ALSO exists?

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kaj', 'J')umping into burning buildings and all that.

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kaj', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kaj', '
')The American people, in general, have been to the left of both parties for some time. (In general they want job security, cheap healthcare, less war etc.) Every American I have talked to has expressed his/her dissatisfaction with the system.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kaj', 'L')udi--I do not feel as though this has been a dialogue.

I feel a tad attacked, in fact, by your pointed questions. Which is sad as I have always read your posts with interest, and I respect your exertions on your farm, and your environmental ethos.

Where are these questions coming from? Where do you stand on these issues?

Do you have no faith that society can change course?

Was your offer to do take action with me genuine or cynical?

[Kaj]

Fair enough, thanks for getting back to me.

Well if we lived close I would take you up on pursuing something of mutual interest.
When I go back home to England I intend to get a more involved with my local Stop the War branch over Summer, and possibly a direct action environmental camp.

In the community realms of cyberspace, I think just trying to speak the truth as you know it is an important deed in itself.
c.f. Cid's tagline.

While I'm hanging around PO, I was hoping too to maybe try to come up with an alternative economic model to the status quo, in collaboration with others here, since there are some mighty fine minds on this sight. But I've found that my ideas tend to bump into a lot of reactionary criticism, so I dunno if that will happen.



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('specop', 'I') think you watch CNN too much.

Our Democratic party is not even remotely right wing.

[bodigami]

"Like a pebble smoothed over time in a river - no influence"

BUT, I think if I survive I can have some impact... in fact, lately I'm thinking more about post-PO rebirth than in starting changes through all society to "prevent" PO.