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THE Utility Infrastructure Thread (e.g. dams, water/sewer)

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: America's fresh water pipeline infrastructure is failing

Unread postby frankthetank » Wed 09 Apr 2008, 13:11:34

They are trying to run a sewer line under the bed of the Mississippi River up here and after 2 attempts, i think the company thats doing it has given up. Trying to get a town across the river hooked up to our sewer lines. I guess everyone(cities involved) are starting to lawyer up because of this companies failure.
I'm on a private well, but have had thoughts to upgrade my pump now instead of waiting for it to fail. Its a submersible down about 70ft. The pump is nearing 20 yrs old, but i don't think has been used much. Maybe i'll just stockpile an extra pump and some parts.
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Re: America's fresh water pipeline infrastructure is failing

Unread postby Gandalf_the_White » Wed 09 Apr 2008, 14:46:22

Of course we could find (print) the money to do it, but it is yet another exceptionally large challenge coming just when we do not need it. However, it does sound like a great New Deal program in the making. If we decide to git' er' dun, we could create a few hundred thousand extra jobs for at least five to ten years and stimulate local economies through the wages paid to the dedicated water infrastructure restoration workforce.

See, it's all good.
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Re: America's fresh water pipeline infrastructure is failing

Unread postby Denny » Wed 09 Apr 2008, 15:48:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gandalf_the_White', 'O')f course we could find (print) the money to do it, but it is yet another exceptionally large challenge coming just when we do not need it. However, it does sound like a great New Deal program in the making. If we decide to git' er' dun, we could create a few hundred thousand extra jobs for at least five to ten years and stimulate local economies through the wages paid to the dedicated water infrastructure restoration workforce.

Absolutely. It seems some people are so negative, in such a state of doom, they think that soemthing like money can stand in the way of a national priority. Just think of all the public infrastructure that was carried out in the 1920's, a time when the national income was much lower per capita than today. And, when it took so much more labor hours to accomplish most every task.
Even if the govnerment had to borrow all the money for this, its still a good thing. As long as they borrow it from Americans, so the debt payments stay home. I heard said, back many yeaars ago in an economics course, that loans create their own money supply. Like a virtuous circle.
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Re: America's fresh water pipeline infrastructure is failing

Unread postby jdmartin » Wed 09 Apr 2008, 15:53:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('frankthetank', 'J')D-For the record, i can't stand cast iron pipes! Talk about trying to get a leak free connection. I ripped out everything here at home and put in copper. Do they weld the big city pipes or something? I would love to see the roll of Teflon tape they are using :)
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Frank,
Cast iron is pretty atypical for use in indoor home plumbing, unless it was really old turn-of-the-century stuff. Most indoor plumbing that "looks" like cast iron is really galvanized steel, which is junk - it corrodes from the inside out, eventually diminishing the interior diameter of the pipe until you can't get any volume out of the pipe.
Cast iron that's in the ground is restrained in 3 ways:
1. One end of the pipe is shaped like a bell. The other end of the pipe fits into a bell on another pipe, then lead is packed around it to keep it leak-free. This is the old-time way, and the joints often leak, but it's very long-lasting. Contrary to thought process, no lead gets in the water this way as the lead is packed around the outside of the pipe.
2. Again, one end of the pipe is shaped like a bell. Inside the bell is a small groove that a rubber gasket fits inside. You lube that gasket, then push the other end of another piece of pipe that's been slightly beveled into the gasket. When the line is filled with water and pressurized, the gasket seals tight. This is the new way of doing things, and also it's usually done with cast iron's replacement ductile iron. Ductile iron has a little magnesium in it to make it "ductile" or pliable, so it can give a little bit and not break. Cast iron is very rigid and brittle - if the ground shifts it will break. Anyway, the rubber gasket setup is brilliant and lasts a very long time; gaskets are already 50 years old in some places and still not leaking.
3. A mechanical coupling joins the 2 pipes together. You basically bolt them together with a gasket in between. This way is is the most solid and used where you can't take a chance of a bell socket coming apart. The coupling can slip on either end, or the pipe can have a flange built into it.

Anyways, ductile iron is the way to go. If your community is using any plastic material instead of ductile iron, eventually that plastic is going to fail because plastic gets brittle over time. Buried plastic is at least protected from UVs but I think 50 years from now there's going to be a lot of people panicking as their plastic starts coming apart everywhere.
Inside my house I'd use copper as a first choice. The price is through the roof right now but it's good stuff that doesn't heavily leach into the water if your water's not ridiculously aggressive (most municipal water shouldn't be).
PS: I meant cast iron for drinking water, not for sewer. It's very common for sewer even going back 50 years.
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Re: America's fresh water pipeline infrastructure is failing

Unread postby frankthetank » Wed 09 Apr 2008, 16:18:08

Right... galvanized steel. Getting the two screwed up. I do have cast iron sewer pipe/some pvc.
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Re: America's fresh water pipeline infrastructure is failing

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Wed 09 Apr 2008, 20:16:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Twilight', 'P')ush comes to shove, the work will be done for food. Of that, the US has no shortage. I wouldn't waste time worrying about this bit.

The work isn't being done. Our infrastructure is crumbling and the work isn't being done. Why would it be done for food (paid for by whom?) some magical time in the future?

So the question becomes, how dumb are the municipal water boards?
If you believe they are suicidally dumb, then you should be concerned. If you believe they are even remotely capable of understanding cause and effect then don't worry about it.
The collapse of the water grid would mean the end of civlization and the near immediate death of most of the human population of the United States.
Which city planner isn't aware of this?
Also, does all of this work need to be completed tomorrow? We have plenty of time to do this work. It will get done slowly over the course of a few decades without anyone realizing what's going on.
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Re: America's fresh water pipeline infrastructure is failing

Unread postby dinopello » Wed 09 Apr 2008, 20:22:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'S')o the question becomes, how dumb are the municipal water boards?

I'm not sure of the percentage of people that are under a municipal water authority that has the power to raise funds. I know I am not. Water projects here have to be paid for with bonds voted on by the people or by taxes generated by an elected board. Fortunately, people here see the value of investments and have never failed to support a bond (and thus taxes) for those type purposes. Not sure that is the case everywhere. How dumb are the people could also be asked.
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Re: America's fresh water pipeline infrastructure is failing

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 09 Apr 2008, 21:53:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'S')o the question becomes, how dumb are the municipal water boards?

I believe they may not magically be capable of getting funding until the situation is obvious and desperate.
And then, will the funding be available? Because is "has to be"?
I wish I had that kind of faith.
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Re: THE Utility Infrastructure Thread (e.g. dams, water/sewe

Unread postby kpeavey » Fri 23 Jan 2009, 16:46:41

The government wants to build new infrastructure quickly and on a grand scale. The also want to do it with unemployed, inexperienced minorities and women.

Because that makes such good sense?

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Re: THE Utility Infrastructure Thread (e.g. dams, water/sewe

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 23 Jan 2009, 18:26:47

The road crews were working on our road yesterday! They were'nt exactly repairing it, but they were maintaining it, in an inexpensive way - they were grading the ditches so, as the crewman said "If it ever rains the rain won't all go on the road."
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Re: THE Utility Infrastructure Thread (e.g. dams, water/sewe

Unread postby rattleshirt » Sun 25 Jan 2009, 13:32:22

Here in the county the highway department has gone to using chip and seal for things that would have been resurfaced or properly filled 5-10 years ago. They just can't afford the pricetag. Incidentally, chip and seal sucks. I'd rather just have a gravel road.
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Re: THE Utility Infrastructure Thread (e.g. dams, water/sewe

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 25 Jan 2009, 13:56:33

Our road is like that. It used to be gravel (before we moved here) and what paving it has is thin and of poor quality. Now big sections of it are almost entirely potholes, with a little gravel and maybe on a good day, a little smidgen of asphalt. Next time it floods, this road is a goner. I'd be surprised if they repair it after that.
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Re: THE Utility Infrastructure Thread (e.g. dams, water/sewe

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 26 Jan 2009, 03:36:55

Funny thing is I grew up on a gravel road and for about a month each spring it really stunk, when the frost was going out and the many layers became unstable. However for at least 10 months of the year I preferred it to the paved roads where idiots think they can go 55 no matter if it is raining, snowing, sunny or foggy. People who live on gravle roads and learn how to drive on them all seasons are better drivers, they have to be or they spend a lot of time buried to the axels or in the ditch along side.
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Re: THE Utility Infrastructure Thread (e.g. dams, water/sewe

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 26 Jan 2009, 09:04:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rattleshirt', 'H')ere in the county the highway department has gone to using chip and seal for things that would have been resurfaced or properly filled 5-10 years ago. They just can't afford the pricetag. Incidentally, chip and seal sucks. I'd rather just have a gravel road.


Chip seals arn't what they used to be. In the old days the asphalt was cut back with naptha or white gasoline and if the underlieing road was any good they would last a long time. The evaporating naptha was banned by the EPA though and now they cut it back with water. Oil and water don't mix so it has to be made into an emulsion using a soap and pressure mixing. It will work but only if everything is right. The stone chips have to be dry, the weather has to be fair the road surface has to be dry with no shaddy spots, Heaven help you if it rains, the emulsion will float on the rain water and coat the ditches and the ducks in the pond.
How many days at your worksite are all the conditions exactly right? Doing road construction its even less.
What you get is stones flying everywhere and 100 pinged windshields a day. fogedahboutit.
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Re: THE Utility Infrastructure Thread (e.g. dams, water/sewe

Unread postby MarkJ » Mon 26 Jan 2009, 10:40:47

The water/sewer piping in some older cities in my region is pretty bad. The old sewer pipes are often cracked/broken/separated and full of tree roots and debris. The water shutoffs at the curb are rarely functional. When you dig up the sidewalk and piping, you never know what kind of cob job and oddball materials you'll find. Over the years they've used clay, cast iron, Non-malleable iron, galvanized, lead & brass piping, lead packings, lead solder etc. Often older water sewer connections have many repair splices or new-to-old splices as well.

Some of the storm sewers can't handle heavy rains and spring snow melt either, so yards and basement are often flooded. We replace a lot of heating equipment when the basement sump pumps plug or fail due to debris, burnout or power outages. Back in the day homes didn't have adequate drainage and waterproofing, which adds insult to injury.
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