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THE US Tax Thread (merged)

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Your current federal tax (as a percentage)?

Poll ended at Sun 03 Apr 2005, 15:29:51

0 to 5 percent
3
No votes
5 to 10 percent
2
No votes
10 to 15 percent
3
No votes
15 to 20 percent
4
No votes
20 to 25 percent
1
No votes
25 to 30 percent
5
No votes
> 30 percent
5
No votes
 
Total votes : 23

aspects of taxes in the USA make no financial sense

Unread postby phaster » Sat 08 Mar 2008, 22:41:09

was just listening to this weeks pod cast of Jim Puplava

http://www.netcastdaily.com/broadcast/f ... 308-3a.mp3

and I have a question if anyone one else thinks some aspect of your respective tax system make NO FINANCIAL SENSE!

My pet peeve, is two fold, first involves taxing interest on savings. WTF is up with that? Here in the US with the subprime mess I think they should encourage savings in banks, instead the government taxes interest earned on savings, IMHO that is pretty dumb cause savings in banks could be used to lend to people in a local community. Just did my own taxes and I'm kinda P.O. that some money I put in a bank CD is being taxed...

My second pet peeve is I'm just kinda mad
that I get a $0.00 rebate, cause of my Adjusted Gross Income, exceeds what politicicans consider middle class

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/itax/news/t ... p?caret=2m

with the US national debt exceeding 9.4 trillion

http://zfacts.com/p/461.html

I think the financially prudent thing to do would be to pay down the debt, which IMHO is a better management decision!

So is the moral of the story, get a sub prime loan, live large and then claim to be bankrupt, so ya can get a tax refund?

What happened to the puritan savings ethic?
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Re: aspects of taxes in the USA make no financial sense

Unread postby steam_cannon » Sat 08 Mar 2008, 23:12:00

I think the real question is, are there any aspects of the tax code that
make sense for people other then the top 1%? :lol:

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http://www.pastpeak.com/archives/politics/index.htm
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Re: aspects of taxes in the USA make no financial sense

Unread postby Kingcoal » Sat 08 Mar 2008, 23:22:14

Sounds like you're a "spending evader" and guilty of "willful failure to spend." I think they can put you in jail for that these days - watch out.
"That's the problem with mercy, kid... It just ain't professional" - Fast Eddie, The Color of Money
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Re: aspects of taxes in the USA make no financial sense

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Sat 08 Mar 2008, 23:30:33

The first two posters, although they believe they are in agreement with each other, have actually contracted each other.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')y pet peeve, is two fold, first involves taxing interest on savings. WTF is up with that? Here in the US with the subprime mess I think they should encourage savings in banks, instead the government taxes interest earned on savings, IMHO that is pretty dumb cause savings in banks could be used to lend to people in a local community. Just did my own taxes and I'm kinda P.O. that some money I put in a bank CD is being taxed...


Who do you think pays most of the taxes on interest? It's not the poor and middle class.

If you want to cut taxes on savings and investment, it gets derided as "tax cuts for the rich" because only the rich actually manage to save/invest their money.

So naturally, any tax reduction on savings would mostly benefit the richest Americans.

I don't get a rebate either. I earn enough to qualify but I'm claimed as a dependent...fucking IRS... :x
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Re: aspects of taxes in the USA make no financial sense

Unread postby Gandalf_the_White » Sat 08 Mar 2008, 23:43:48

The part that really makes no sense is that what is done with our tax money is largely out of our control once the check leaves our mailbox. Some smart men once called it taxation without representation, I've heard it put more bluntly as plutocracy. In the service model of government we feel like as long as the bridges are'nt crumbling and the professional sports events keep coming and the malls have our favorite food court restaurants all is well. Many of us actually do. Few of us want to think that any portion of our taxes went to funding the trip of a CIA operative to Morocco who electrocuted and beat a man to death because someone who did not like him told the authorities he had links to Al Qaeda. We don't need to care as long as the beers keep coming and the Super Bowl goes off without a hitch. This is the year that Americans will start to wake up again, this is the year when they will finally start to question, and perhaps the only reason for it will be that a recession that will turn into a deep economic crisis is about to come to America. At the depth of the pain our enemies, who hate us cruelly and have strengthened their hatred with each cruise missile that drops on a non-combatant country will see that their time has come. If you are under 30 you will see in your lifetime the fall of the Union.

This is a public service announcement by your local mad prophet. Don't say you were'nt warned.
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Re: aspects of taxes in the USA make no financial sense

Unread postby Fishman » Sun 09 Mar 2008, 00:09:57

with the US national debt exceeding 9.4 trillion is the key to the crash.
Oh boo hoo Gandalf! When the crash comes it will be the liberals whining the most, how can we fund all these entitlements, how can we provide for the rights of all the criminals in jail? Oh boo hoo how will our economy provide for the nanny state when Al quida pops a nuke or those nice put upon countries ...... don't get their aid from us?
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Re: aspects of taxes in the USA make no financial sense

Unread postby Gandalf_the_White » Sun 09 Mar 2008, 00:32:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', 'w')ith the US national debt exceeding 9.4 trillion is the key to the crash.
Oh boo hoo Gandalf! When the crash comes it will be the liberals whining the most, how can we fund all these entitlements, how can we provide for the rights of all the criminals in jail? Oh boo hoo how will our economy provide for the nanny state when Al quida pops a nuke or those nice put upon countries ...... don't get their aid from us?


"It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of an angry God."

If your heart is so hard that loss of life means nothing to you I am sorry for you. Hell awaits.
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Re: aspects of taxes in the USA make no financial sense

Unread postby frankthetank » Sun 09 Mar 2008, 01:02:38

Don't the "rich" then just donate millions to some stupid stadium (thats what is happening locally) and then they can just "write it off"???

The whole system is set up to implode... Give it some more time...
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Re: aspects of taxes in the USA make no financial sense

Unread postby Gandalf_the_White » Sun 09 Mar 2008, 04:26:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('frankthetank', 'D')on't the "rich" then just donate millions to some stupid stadium (thats what is happening locally) and then they can just "write it off"???

The whole system is set up to implode... Give it some more time...


If it benefits the elite and their masters I don;t see what joe sixpack can do about it. And now the plans have moved beyond simply wanting to make money off of us, they view us all as either and asset or a liability. Was doing some research on the Rockefellers. Dude, we are talking major influence, if you track the real assets and include positions held of the five most infamous families you wil notice they are everywhere. Sitting on the boards of 100's of major companies, benfitting from every war and every peace, and every crime and every punishment,...it's terrifying. Nelson Rockefeller told the Senate when Ford nominated him that his family only had minor influence on the US economy. Then a study group showed that the family had spread it's wealth and influence in a way that made it seem like they were'nt really multi-billionaires. You don't a Rockefeller or a Rothschild listed in the Forbes billioniare list, they are past all of that. Uber-wealth and power, the demigods of this zeitgiest. Got into the history of the Federal Reserve and learned that Lincoln had squashed an Rothschild backed Federal Reserve Bank, and that Kennedy had signed an executive order to print United States Banknotes at the Treasury shortly before he was assassinated. I'm starting to suspect that the purpose of the dollar devaluation is to pave the way for the North American Union and the Amero. Does any of us actually have proof that reserves would not allow increased production? We know peak happens eventually, but do you really believe that these people are stupid enough not to make absolutely sure they privately have the very best estimates on when and if oil production will decline. Sure there are some things that no person or nation can control, but why could'nt someone be talking to the Sauds and saying listen, here is what we want, why we want it and how we are going to get it, and here is how you are going to help, and here is what is in it for you. I guess what I am saying is suddenly I realize that even over the internet it is quite possible that we only ever know what the people who are in charge want us to. Alex Jones has suggested that peak oil now is a complete ruse. Gotta go to bed. Somebody once told me that America was a country where anybody could succeed, at least the dream was a fair playing field. Then you wake up and realize that at the very least you have been a number in someon elses spreadsheet and perhaps you may have been interesting enough that certain aspect of your life were manipulated by the powers that be.

Information, disinformation, misinformation, truth means nothing to them unless you can answer the question 'Who wants to know?'
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Re: aspects of taxes in the USA make no financial sense

Unread postby Gandalf_the_White » Sun 09 Mar 2008, 04:27:46

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Re: aspects of taxes in the USA make no financial sense

Unread postby cube » Sun 09 Mar 2008, 06:19:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('phaster', '.')..
My pet peeve, is two fold, first involves taxing interest on savings. ...
At first glance I see your reason for being upset. It's like double taxation. Your savings are whatever is leftover after income taxes and then you get hit again...wham bam!

However Americans barely have any "savings" so it's pretty much negligible. That's the way I see it.

Leona Helmsley: (The Queen of Mean)....."only little people pay taxes" :)
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Re: aspects of taxes in the USA make no financial sense

Unread postby dsula » Sun 09 Mar 2008, 10:08:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gandalf_the_White', 'I')f it benefits the elite and their masters I don;t see what joe sixpack can do about it.

Joe Sixpack could actually go to school, graduate, work 10 years in his field, start a business, become part of the "elite". However it seems Joe Sixpack prefers hanging around at the local 7-11 drinking, well sixpacks, on the back of a F150 truck, bitching about how unfair the world is and how the "elite" constantly rips him off.
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Re: aspects of taxes in the USA make no financial sense

Unread postby vision-master » Sun 09 Mar 2008, 10:38:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')y second pet peeve is I'm just kinda mad
that I get a $0.00 rebate, cause of my Adjusted Gross Income, exceeds what politicicans consider middle class


like you need a rebate, eh. How about more of a rebate for the peeps that NEED help, huh. Ever thought about them?
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Re: aspects of taxes in the USA make no financial sense

Unread postby FoolYap » Sun 09 Mar 2008, 10:39:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('phaster', 'M')y second pet peeve is I'm just kinda mad
that I get a $0.00 rebate, cause of my Adjusted Gross Income, exceeds what politicicans consider middle class


I didn't get a rebate either, and it doesn't bother me. Ever hear of the phrase, "cry all the way to the bank"? If my alternative is to take a huge pay-cut so I can earn "enough less" to get a bogus one-time tax rebate, I'll take the higher pay, thank you. :lol: People earning less than I do, need the rebate more than I do.

If taxes on savings interest are a significant problem for you, look into some of the vehicles for investing tax-free -- municipal bonds, for example. Or, invest more in tax-deferred vehicles, if you're not already maxxed out there.

Personally, I don't get bitching about taxes. The effective tax rates for high earners in the U.S. are a lot lower than they were a generation ago. And I think we're seeing some of the effects of that, with the enormous budget deficits we've been running, as well as crumbling infrastructure. We're spending more than we "earn" in taxes. Everyone wants to point at their favorite examples of waste (and "waste") that could be cut on the spending side, but amazingly enough, we all have a different set of these, and amazingly enough, none of us wants "our" "essential" services and programs cut.

So if we're already severely deficit-spending with taxes where they are, and we're not in favor of making real cuts to programs & services we enjoy the benefits of, then let's not compound the problem by asking for tax cuts, eh? 8)

--Steve
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Re: aspects of taxes in the USA make no financial sense

Unread postby MarkJames » Sun 09 Mar 2008, 11:25:28

I won't be getting a rebate, but I benefit from borrow & spend rebates since some of our customers will use them to help with the expenses of service, equipment installations, heating oil, kerosene and propane. Many of my tenants will use the rebates to catch up on utility bills, cable bills, phone bills and to help offset increasing rents and overall real inflation.

Since low income people are generally undisciplined at saving and investing, much of their income eventually ends up in the hands of the wealthy.
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Re: aspects of taxes in the USA make no financial sense

Unread postby vision-master » Sun 09 Mar 2008, 11:48:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MarkJames', 'I') won't be getting a rebate, but I benefit from borrow & spend rebates since some of our customers will use them to help with the expenses of service, equipment installations, heating oil, kerosene and propane. Many of my tenants will use the rebates to catch up on utility bills, cable bills, phone bills and to help offset increasing rents and overall real inflation.

Since low income people are generally undisciplined at saving and investing, much of their income eventually ends up in the hands of the wealthy.


low income people have other basic needs to tend to 1st. Like food, shelter and clothing.
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Re: aspects of taxes in the USA make no financial sense

Unread postby MarkJames » Sun 09 Mar 2008, 12:52:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MarkJames', 'I') won't be getting a rebate, but I benefit from borrow & spend rebates since some of our customers will use them to help with the expenses of service, equipment installations, heating oil, kerosene and propane. Many of my tenants will use the rebates to catch up on utility bills, cable bills, phone bills and to help offset increasing rents and overall real inflation.

Since low income people are generally undisciplined at saving and investing, much of their income eventually ends up in the hands of the wealthy.


low income people have other basic needs to tend to 1st. Like food, shelter and clothing.


Many low income people pay little or no taxes, receive large tax credit refunds, live in subsidized housing and receive food stamps, food pantry donations, WIC, heat/energy/weatherization assistance, subsidized child care, free transportation, the list goes on.

Since most low income people aren't disciplined at saving and investing, they often blow their money on beer, cigarettes, lottery tickets, pizzas, pot, junk food, soda, electronics, digital cable, high speed internet etc. When they get hard up for cash, they'll pawn or sell their stuff for pennies on the dollar.
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Re: aspects of taxes in the USA make no financial sense

Unread postby vision-master » Sun 09 Mar 2008, 12:55:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MarkJames', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MarkJames', 'I') won't be getting a rebate, but I benefit from borrow & spend rebates since some of our customers will use them to help with the expenses of service, equipment installations, heating oil, kerosene and propane. Many of my tenants will use the rebates to catch up on utility bills, cable bills, phone bills and to help offset increasing rents and overall real inflation.

Since low income people are generally undisciplined at saving and investing, much of their income eventually ends up in the hands of the wealthy.


low income people have other basic needs to tend to 1st. Like food, shelter and clothing.


Many low income people pay little or no taxes, receive large tax credit refunds, live in subsidized housing and receive food stamps, food pantry donations, WIC, heat/energy/weatherization assistance, subsidized child care, free transportation, the list goes on.

Since most low income people aren't disciplined at saving and investing, they often blow their money on beer, cigarettes, lottery tickets, pizzas, pot, junk food, soda, electronics, digital cable, high speed internet etc. When they get hard up for cash, they'll pawn or sell their stuff for pennies on the dollar.


can't they have a little fun. I tell ya what, If all i had was $10 to my name, I'd go buy a 12 pack. I mean, WTF. :razz:
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Re: aspects of taxes in the USA make no financial sense

Unread postby phaster » Sun 09 Mar 2008, 15:44:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kingcoal', 'S')ounds like you're a "spending evader" and guilty of "willful failure to spend." I think they can put you in jail for that these days - watch out.


trust me I do spend money, but I use "situational awareness" to make sure I do not spend more money than I have....

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'I') don't get a rebate either. I earn enough to qualify but I'm claimed as a dependent...fucking IRS... :x


It's not the IRS who makes tax laws, it congress!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'l')ike you need a rebate, eh. How about more of a rebate for the peeps that NEED help, huh. Ever thought about them?


You are correct, I do not need the rebate congress and the president are proposing, and you are incorrect about my point of view (I do consider the plight of the less well off), but my basic peeve is that the "rebate" reinforces unsustainable behavior.

The function of taxes IMHO are suppose to raise money for necessary and sustainable functions of a society, and are not suppose to be spent in an irresponsible way.

I don't have any formal training as an economist nor am I a politician, so unencumbered by the thought process here is the way I see things...

Over the last 100 or so years, real estate went up on average about 3% annually, but over the few years from say 2000 to 2005 there was an explosive growth in global real estate. I'm in california and there was double digit growth (on the order of 20%) in real estate prices for about 4 plus years. There was an article by Eric Janszen in harpers,

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2008/02/0081908

that has graphs that shows time vs $, and economic bubbles in the dot com boom or real estate boom are similar in that ya have a short period where there is explosive growth (which is un-sustainable), and eventually a reversion to the long term historic mean value.

Congress and the president in order to look like they are doing something the help out, IMHO are not looking at the big picture. An unsustainable system will eventually crash, its just a matter of how bad. My own back ground is in physics, and I look at the problem in terms of adding energy to an unbalanced system. Think about a un-balanced tire, it is possible to drive with an unbalanced tire a long time if ya drive slow, but if ya drive faster (which as analogous to adding energy or money) to the system, the tire will wear faster.

If your diving faster and a tire blows due to uneven ware, the basic rule of thumb is the faster you're going when a failure occurs in the tire, the worst off is the potential crash. Basically its another inverse square law, if ya double the speed the potental energy in a crash goes up as a square.

Another way I thought about the problem of congress and the president adding fiscal stimulus or changing the banking rules mid-stream, is something I've experenced while flying called PIO or "Pilot Induced Oscillation".

What happens in PIO is the plane does something unexpected, say a draft hits the plane on final, a surprised pilot tries to correct from the unexpected turn of events, but what too often happens is the pilot over corrects and this feedback loop grows ever larger over time with catastrophic results.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?num ... ision&cd=1

Read about Hernando de Soto an economist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hernando_d ... (economist)

who basically came to the conclusion that the reason the US and other western nations prospered economically, while third world counties like Peru remained banana republics, is because of legal contract that enforced economic certainity. If congress and the president force banks to write down or change terms of "subprime loans" then in effect this would be akin or no different than a dictator in the banana republic telling a bank to change the terms of a contract for large multi-national corporation.

The reason I added the link to the national debt of now $9.4 plus, is because I'm looking at the general trend of debt growing ever larger, being a fiscal conservative IMHO the better management decision would be to pay down debt now rather than encourage more reckless consumer spending. The longer congress, the president and the American people put off directly addressing the problem of an unsustainable economy and letting the system crash, the harder the fall!
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Re: aspects of taxes in the USA make no financial sense

Unread postby Fishman » Sun 09 Mar 2008, 16:27:06

phaster,
Your logic is perfect,

Paying down the debt would be the only way, but that's hard work, fewer entitlements, and hard decisions on individual's parts, won't happen until it's forced upon us
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