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Dead industries walking

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Dead industries walking

Unread postby Graeme » Thu 07 Feb 2008, 00:34:06

Dead industries walking

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t has not been a good year so far for King Coal, Big Oil, and whatever nickname we give to the nuclear energy industry.

Two weeks ago, TIME reported that nuclear plants in the southeastern U.S. may be forced to cut power production or temporarily shut down later this year because the year-long drought has left too little water to cool the reactors.

There already has been one drought-related shutdown in Alabama. And while officials aren't yet predicting brownouts, utilities will be forced to buy expensive replacement power from other places, leading to "shockingly high electric bills for millions of southerners."

What does all this bad news mean? For those who have the courage to look, the end of the era of finite fuels is in sight. The end always was inevitable, of course. That's what finite is all about. But I believe that oil, coal, natural gas, and nuclear energy -- let's call them the Finite Four -- are entering their end game.

Like prisoners on the way to the gallows, they're bargaining desperately for a reprieve. Van der Veer recommends more effort to harvest unconventional oil from tar sands and more environmentally sensitive and harder-to-reach places. But tar sands, oil shale, liquid fuels from coal, and other unconventional fossil fuels promise nothing but more problems. They are filthy. They accelerate global warming. They use a lot of energy and water.

The Finite Four have entered Stage 3. Perhaps when they progress to State 5 -- acceptance -- they will grasp the new reality the world faces today: If they want life, they must end their own addiction to finite resources and join in a transition to sustainable, renewable energy.


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Re: Dead industries walking

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Thu 07 Feb 2008, 06:33:26

Graeme,
You are turning to be a doomer 8O .
First you have noticed farming difficulties, now you are referring to troubles of power plants.
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Re: Dead industries walking

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 07 Feb 2008, 08:02:51

That is just dumb faith in the accuracy of a TIME reporter, a spotty thing at best to base one's opinion on!
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Re: Dead industries walking

Unread postby wisconsin_cur » Thu 07 Feb 2008, 08:20:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')AKE NORMAN, N.C. - Nuclear reactors across the Southeast could be forced to throttle back or temporarily shut down later this year because drought is drying up the rivers and lakes that supply power plants with the awesome amounts of cooling water they need to operate.

Utility officials say such shutdowns probably wouldn’t result in blackouts. But they could lead to shockingly higher electric bills for millions of Southerners, because the region’s utilities could be forced to buy expensive replacement power from other energy companies.



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')n Associated Press analysis of the nation’s 104 nuclear reactors found that 24 are in areas experiencing the most severe levels of drought. All but two are built on the shores of lakes and rivers and rely on submerged intake pipes to draw billions of gallons of water for use in cooling and condensing steam after it has turned the plants’ turbines.

Because of the yearlong dry spell gripping the region, the water levels on those lakes and rivers are getting close to the minimums set by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. Over the next several months, the water could drop below the intake pipes altogether. Or the shallow water could become too hot under the sun to use as coolant.



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')Currently, nuclear power costs between $5 to $7 to produce a megawatt hour,” said Daniele Seitz, an energy analyst with New York-based Dahlman Rose & Co. “It would cost 10 times that amount that if you had to buy replacement power — especially during the summer.”



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')rogress spokeswoman Julie Hahn said the Harris reactor, for example, sucks up 33 million gallons a day, with 17 million gallons lost to evaporation via its big cooling towers. Duke’s McGuire plant draws in more than 1 billion gallons a day, but most of it is pumped back to its source.



MSNBC

and if we do not have "dumb faith in the accuracy of a TIME reporter" what exactly are we suppose to have faith in? Some dumb guy typing on an internet message board? Maybe the government? I have no problem looking critically at what reporters write but neither can we just discount what they say as "dumb faith."
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Re: Dead industries walking

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 07 Feb 2008, 08:30:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')AKE NORMAN, N.C. - Nuclear reactors across the Southeast could be forced to throttle back or temporarily shut down later this year because drought is drying up the rivers and lakes that supply power plants with the awesome amounts of cooling water they need to operate.

Utility officials say such shutdowns probably wouldn’t result in blackouts. But they could lead to shockingly higher electric bills for millions of Southerners, because the region’s utilities could be forced to buy expensive replacement power from other energy companies.



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')n Associated Press analysis of the nation’s 104 nuclear reactors found that 24 are in areas experiencing the most severe levels of drought. All but two are built on the shores of lakes and rivers and rely on submerged intake pipes to draw billions of gallons of water for use in cooling and condensing steam after it has turned the plants’ turbines.

Because of the yearlong dry spell gripping the region, the water levels on those lakes and rivers are getting close to the minimums set by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. Over the next several months, the water could drop below the intake pipes altogether. Or the shallow water could become too hot under the sun to use as coolant.



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')Currently, nuclear power costs between $5 to $7 to produce a megawatt hour,” said Daniele Seitz, an energy analyst with New York-based Dahlman Rose & Co. “It would cost 10 times that amount that if you had to buy replacement power — especially during the summer.”



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')rogress spokeswoman Julie Hahn said the Harris reactor, for example, sucks up 33 million gallons a day, with 17 million gallons lost to evaporation via its big cooling towers. Duke’s McGuire plant draws in more than 1 billion gallons a day, but most of it is pumped back to its source.



MSNBC

and if we do not have "dumb faith in the accuracy of a TIME reporter" what exactly are we suppose to have faith in? Some dumb guy typing on an internet message board? Maybe the government? I have no problem looking critically at what reporters write but neither can we just discount what they say as "dumb faith."

Were any plants actually shut down for an extended period of time? Why were Nuclear plants effected but not coal plants?

People see the word Nuclear and go nuts, a heat engine is a heat engine is a heat engine, they all reject heat to the environment as they convert heat into mechanical energy. Power plants just convert mechanical energy into electrical energy.

There is no magic involved, you make water hot to get steam, use the steam pressure, then cool the steam to get water for the boilers. To do this you have to have a way of either endlessly replacing the water you made into steam or of cooling the steam back into water. The cheapest way to do that is with a constant supply of cooling water, the cooler the better. BUT THAT IS NOT THE ONLY WAY!

Besides all that I was referring to the fact that the GRIST article is based on maybe's and possiblies postulated in the TIME article and not actual events.
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Re: Dead industries walking

Unread postby wisconsin_cur » Thu 07 Feb 2008, 09:15:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ere any plants actually shut down for an extended period of time?


yes, foresight is evil. Journalists should never report anything that might become a problem only report on disasters afterwards.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy were Nuclear plants effected but not coal plants?


I did a google search and came up with reporting on both. I picked one article and it was about nuclear. I don't care a bit about nuclear esp since it looks like we are going to store the waste in Nevada and Nevada is a long distance from me.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he cheapest way to do that is with a constant supply of cooling water, the cooler the better. BUT THAT IS NOT THE ONLY WAY!


So when can you get to work retrofitting those power plants in the South East? When will it be done and how much will it cost?
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Re: Dead industries walking

Unread postby lawnchair » Thu 07 Feb 2008, 11:22:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')Were any plants actually shut down for an extended period of time? Why were Nuclear plants effected but not coal plants?


Nuclear plants with evap towers (which is not all of them) evaporate water at pretty much the exact same rate as coal plants with evap towers (not as many, but some). The only differences are that it's easier to site a coal plant on a populated riverway for cooling, and the nukes are much more monitored for downstream temps and making sure the water supply is plenty adequate.
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Re: Dead industries walking

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 07 Feb 2008, 12:59:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '[')b]
So when can you get to work retrofitting those power plants in the South East? When will it be done and how much will it cost?
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Re: Dead industries walking

Unread postby Starvid » Thu 07 Feb 2008, 14:07:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '[')b]
So when can you get to work retrofitting those power plants in the South East? When will it be done and how much will it cost?
Leave it to the power corps. They might scew around for a while, but eventually market forces will find the optimal solution.

If you don't believe company X will manage and that this will become a big problem for them, go short their stock.
Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
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Re: Dead industries walking

Unread postby efarmer » Thu 07 Feb 2008, 14:12:47

There is the clean and sustainable world of renewable energy that
so many of us long for into the future, there are petroleum supply
issues right now, and then there is making a buck or getting a
desired result by selling fear. This site is focused like a laser on
peak petroleum and as we all know, the actual time line is getting
clearer, but is in fact still a fuzzy image. I think that with knowledge
there comes a bit of responsibility to use it wisely, to shrink a
decades or perhaps century long fossil fuels trend lines into a
"maybe right now" article is simply an invitation to reject it out of
hand as rubbish for many people, (which is in fact incorrect) ,
and at the same time is a trade of fear, and premature panic for
the price of a magazine. I think that is a bad deal. Compressing
the time line and amplifying the effects are both prime factors for
peak resources issue proponents being ridiculed, ignored, and
often obtaining self inflicted marginalization. Part of the truth is
telling what you are convinced of and what is in fact uncertain to
you and that you have rationalized to form a coherent position.
Be afraid, be very afraid, always leaves me asking, "why, what
possible good is it going to do for anyone?"
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Re: Dead industries walking

Unread postby Graeme » Thu 07 Feb 2008, 23:06:28

Big oil stokes the fires for the planet to burn

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')here is a parallel universe in operation out there. Politicians try to negotiate a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions, while business executives lay plans to expand their carbon footprint.

Russia, Venezuela and other developing countries are pushing the big multinationals about and seizing their assets. At present, Van der Veer and Hayward are more worried about that than pleasing public opinion in the west.

But in the longer term they are digging their companies' graves. When proper carbon pricing does eventually kick in, these businesses will find themselves with heavy liabilities round their necks. Like the tobacco companies, oil executives could one day find themselves in court. But for now, they seem willing to stoke the fires for the planet to burn.


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