[lorenzo]

EROEI-gurus Pimentel & Patzek have been completely debunked by science. These loonies have made themselves look ridiculous with their fake studies about the net energy value of biofuels from switchgrass. These studies were taken as proof by hysteric Peak Oilers, as proof that biomass is inefficient.

Well, scientists have completely nuked Pimentel & Patzek. They conducted the largest ever actual field study, 5-years long, on acreages 100 times bigger than previous studies with switchgrass, at 10 different sites, and showed that the fuels from the crop have a NEV of 540%. Many times higher than that "simulated" by silly Pimental and Patzek. So there.

To people who have just joined this site: never trust Peak Oilers when they talk about energy returns and efficiency. They never base their arguments on science. Only on gurus who are being debunked consistently.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Switchgrass to ethanol extremely energy efficient Tuesday, January 8, 2008, 2:31 PM, by Peter Shinn:
Research out this week in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences shows switchgrass delivers much more energy than it takes to grow and process into ethanol. Just how much more? A whopping 540%.

Dr. Ken Vogel is a scientist with USDA's Ag Research Service and one of the study's authors. He's stationed at the University of Nebraska at Lincoln. Vogel told Brownfield he's been working on switchgrass for nearly 18 years and used that data to help growers in the five-year field trial grow the crop in the most energy-efficient way possible.

"What we did was used our best management practices that we developed since 1990, and so we provided those to the farmers, and so a lot of the energy inputs were a lot less than people had been using previously," Vogel explained. "And it just shows [what] research on management and agronomic practices and cultivars can do - it can really improve efficiency."

Much like the efficiency of corn production has improved dramatically over the last 25 years, Vogel said the same will be true of switchgrass. And he predicted switchgrass will be a main crop for cellulosic ethanol production.

[Aaron]

From the study:

"The range of harvest depended primarily on the amount of rainfall."

And...

“One acre (0.4 hectares) of the grassland could, on average, deliver 320 barrels of bioethanol.” That suggests (320 x 640) that 204,800 barrels per year per square mile would come from this switchgrass - an improbable amount. So we called one of the study’s authors, Dr. Ken Vogel at the University of Nebraska, to ask him to clarify this number. It turned out the BBC reporter had mixed up barrels and gallons. The researchers had actually estimated switchgrass can yield 4,896 barrels per square mile per year.

This yield is consistent with yields from crops currently being harvested for ethanol. It is somewhat more than corn yields, and it is somewhat less than sugar cane yields, but it is an order of magnitude removed from the best case numbers we have heard discussed."

http://www.ecoworld.com/blog/2008/01/08 ... itchgrass/

Ummm.... you're a troll.

That is all.

[lorenzo]

Wait a minute, the fact that a BBC reporter can't read a scientific study is not my problem.

I strictly don't care about what a blogger thinks, nor what a BBC reporter thinks, not what amateurs like Pimental and Patzek think, nor about how they screw up or can't read studies, or how they try to twist science in favor of their amateurish fictions.

All I care about is scientific results. A large-scale trial in the main targeted growing area showed switchgrass biofuels have an NEV of 540%.

It doesn't matter what you try to do with these data. The data won't change just because you don't like them or because you write about them over at your amateur blog.

540%. That's all.

[Aaron]

In response I'll repeat:

So we called one of the study’s authors, Dr. Ken Vogel at the University of Nebraska, to ask him to clarify this number. It turned out the BBC reporter had mixed up barrels and gallons. The researchers had actually estimated switchgrass can yield 4,896 barrels per square mile per year.

According to the author of the study.

Not me... or a blogger.

The scientist you quoted.

(That's gotta hurt)

[lorenzo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'I')n response I'll repeat:

So we called one of the study’s authors, Dr. Ken Vogel at the University of Nebraska, to ask him to clarify this number. It turned out the BBC reporter had mixed up barrels and gallons. The researchers had actually estimated switchgrass can yield 4,896 barrels per square mile per year.

According to the author of the study.

Not me... or a blogger.

The scientist you quoted.

(That's gotta hurt)

[Aaron]

I suppose you're missing the point (again)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '4'),896 barrels per square mile per year

[lorenzo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'I') suppose you're missing the point (again)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '4'),896 barrels per square mile per year

[lorenzo]

To other readers, let me try again.

Scientists conducted a large field trial, and proved switchgrass biofuels have a net energy return of 540%.

This debunks the simulations made by Pimental & Patzek about similar fuels.

Pimental & Patzek merely simulated things and made mistakes on all factors: inputs, yields, conversion efficiencies.

The scientists instead tested the cultivation of switchgrass in real conditions (not arbitrary simulations), and found that switchgrass based biofuels are extremely energy efficient.

[TheDude]

Some commentary:

TOD

"Perpetual Confusion over Energy Balances"

Green Car Congress

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he catch: Assumed ethanol production numbers, since nobody knows how to make cellulosic ethanol (just yet). So, while this study helped define certain parameters, the complete result should be ingested with a grain of salt, since the overall result is based on a number of "estimates", aka fudge factors.

[Twilight]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', 'T')he scientists instead tested the cultivation of switchgrass in real conditions (not arbitrary simulations), and found that switchgrass based biofuels are extremely energy efficient.

[Concerned]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', 'T')o other readers, let me try again.

Scientists conducted a large field trial, and proved switchgrass biofuels have a net energy return of 540%.

This debunks the simulations made by Pimental & Patzek about similar fuels.

Pimental & Patzek merely simulated things and made mistakes on all factors: inputs, yields, conversion efficiencies.

[Heineken]

David Pimentel (not "Pimental") is a highly respected independent scientist, with multiple peer-reviewed publications to his credit, including in Science magazine. Your transparent attempt to belittle him as an "amateur," Lorenzo, merely undermines your OWN credibility (which on this site is already less than zero).

[lorenzo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', '
')So are we talking about cellulosic's potential in the same kind of terms used for fusion - i.e., wholly theoretical? Next!

[mkwin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', 'T')o other readers, let me try again.

Scientists conducted a large field trial, and proved switchgrass biofuels have a net energy return of 540%.

This debunks the simulations made by Pimental & Patzek about similar fuels.

Pimental & Patzek merely simulated things and made mistakes on all factors: inputs, yields, conversion efficiencies.

The scientists instead tested the cultivation of switchgrass in real conditions (not arbitrary simulations), and found that switchgrass based biofuels are extremely energy efficient.

[lorenzo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'D')avid Pimentel (not "Pimental") is a highly respected independent scientist, with multiple peer-reviewed publications to his credit, including in Science magazine. Your transparent attempt to belittle him as an "amateur," Lorenzo, merely undermines your OWN credibility (which on this site is already less than zero).

[Nano]

I can see a farmer keeping a few acres of switchgrass to fuel his machines. Could you put an ethanolfac on a truck?

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'D')avid Pimentel (not "Pimental") is a highly respected independent scientist, with multiple peer-reviewed publications to his credit, including in Science magazine. Your transparent attempt to belittle him as an "amateur," Lorenzo, merely undermines your OWN credibility (which on this site is already less than zero).

[lorenzo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mkwin', '
')I do believe swichgrass and, eventually, cellulosic biofuels will be part of a the liquid fuel mix. How much, who knows.

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'A')s many of you may be aware I have worked hard to carve out a particular niche here at PO--lambasting Lorenzo. Somehow this particular bash passed unnoticed under my radar and I must say I am a bit put off by all this. How dare you kick lorenzo without me!! I should get in the first punch. This will be brought up with the appropriate moderators and perhaps I will have to go directly to the owner of this site until this situation has been rectified.

I considered asking everybody (except Lorenzo) to delete their posts so I would be the first respondent. But I would have just called him dumb or a 'tool.' Where is the fun in that? In the future I would appreciate being told of in advance when Lorenzo is going to be humiliated. thank you.