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Peak Oil: The Big Fizzle

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Peak Oil: The Big Fizzle

Unread postby TonyPrep » Tue 15 Jan 2008, 05:40:06

Perhaps you mis-read the post, Freddy. North slope production is declining. Why do you think the R/P ratio remains unchanged, in that scenario? It might remain at 40 forever, but that won't stop production going down. 40 years doesn't mean 40 years of increasing production or even of flat production. R/P is rather meaningless once production starts to decline.

As for oil companies living off increased reserves, can you give any figures for that (taking into account mergers and take-overs)? As I understand it, all major oil companies are in declining production and have not been able to replace production for at least a couple of years.
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Re: Peak Oil: The Big Fizzle

Unread postby LastViking » Tue 15 Jan 2008, 06:17:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'P')erhaps you mis-read the post, Freddy.

As for oil companies living off increased reserves, can you give any figures for that (taking into account mergers and take-overs)? As I understand it, all major oil companies are in declining production and have not been able to replace production for at least a couple of years.


Tony, your post to Freddy suggested:

Anwar might have 9 months more reserves. Little or nothing else of this magnitude has been discovered since. And you are feeling happy about this?

You inferred that Peak is imminent due to crashing Reserves & limited Discoveries. And he replied that you are chasing the wrong rabbit.

Peak will come due to inferior flow rates from the non-conventional oil sector and when easy lift Conventional oil falls below 70% of total extraction upon attaining its own sub peak.

As far as IOC's waning reserves & production, your unsubstaniated statement above requires references. I read a lot of big5 Annual Reports and never see the dire results that you claim for "all major oil companies". Your wild exaggerations only serve to discredit your position ... a common trait in these circles.
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Re: Peak Oil: The Big Fizzle

Unread postby TonyPrep » Tue 15 Jan 2008, 06:56:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('LastViking', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'P')erhaps you mis-read the post, Freddy.

As for oil companies living off increased reserves, can you give any figures for that (taking into account mergers and take-overs)? As I understand it, all major oil companies are in declining production and have not been able to replace production for at least a couple of years.


Tony, your post to Freddy suggested:

Anwar might have 9 months more reserves. Little or nothing else of this magnitude has been discovered since. And you are feeling happy about this?

You inferred that Peak is imminent due to crashing Reserves & limited Discoveries. And he replied that you are chasing the wrong rabbit.

Peak will come due to inferior flow rates from the non-conventional oil sector and when easy lift Conventional oil falls below 70% of total extraction upon attaining its own sub peak.

As far as IOC's waning reserves & production, your unsubstaniated statement above requires references. I read a lot of big5 Annual Reports and never see the dire results that you claim for "all major oil companies". Your wild exaggerations only serve to discredit your position ... a common trait in these circles.
I have no idea where you got those inferences; they certainly were not implied by what I wrote.

As for oil companies declines and difficulty in replacing production, there have been many stories to this effect, with my concern raised over two years ago by this Petroleum Review article. At that time, a few companies were managing to maintain or raise production a little, but I don't think that's true now. Do you have some information to show that companies have managed to replace reserves (taking into account mergers and take-overs) over the last couple of years?

On a quick search, I found this document about the IOCs. I haven't read it yet but a quick scan revealed the following:$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')ronically, despite high profits and rising oil prices, the largest IOCs have not been able to replace their reserve assets in recent years in contrast to smaller, independent U.S. oil companies and some NOCs.
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Re: Peak Oil: The Big Fizzle

Unread postby LastViking » Tue 15 Jan 2008, 21:45:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('LastViking', ' ')As far as IOC's waning reserves & production, your unsubstaniated statement above requires references. I read a lot of big5 Annual Reports and never see the dire results that you claim for "all major oil companies". Your wild exaggerations only serve to discredit your position ... a common trait in these circles.

Do you have some information to show that companies have managed to replace reserves (taking into account mergers and take-overs) over the last couple of years?



I dislike doing your homework, but rather than leave the impression (provided by your equally unsubstantiated source from a vague pundit at a fringe firm) that your assertions have merit, it only took five minutes to find this on pgs 18/19 of ExxomMobil's 2006 Annual Report:

"Proved oil and gas reserves additions totaled 2.0 billion oil-equivalent barrels, excluding year-end price/cost effects. In 2006 the Corporation replaced 122 percent of production including asset sales, and has replaced 114 percent of production on average over the last five years."

Upstream Liquids production (thousands of barrels per day):

2006 2005 2004 2003 2002

2,681 2,523 2,571 2,516 2,496


Clearly, both reserves and production are in an uptrend ...
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Re: Peak Oil: The Big Fizzle

Unread postby TonyPrep » Wed 16 Jan 2008, 01:48:01

Well done! So Exxon managed to raise production in 2006, after a dip in 2005. I looked at the summary annual report but couldn't find a breakdown of those reserve additions. However, I guess you are saying that any report (e.g. the one I linked to) that doesn't concur with your view must be by a "vague pundit from a fringe firm".

That's you're opinion, of course.

I see the Exxon graph on world supplies, in the summary report, showed no difference from 2000, except for what it labels "frontier resources". As it talks about oil shale, it is reasonable to assume that their optimistic forecast of increasing world supply to 2030 are rather unrealistic. However, that is my opinion, of course.
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Re: Peak Oil: The Big Fizzle

Unread postby FreddyH » Wed 16 Jan 2008, 02:38:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'I') see the Exxon graph on world supplies, in the summary report, showed no difference from 2000, except for what it labels "frontier resources". As it talks about oil shale, it is reasonable to assume that their optimistic forecast of increasing world supply to 2030 are rather unrealistic. However, that is my opinion, of course.


With respect Tony, what do u mean "no diff from 2000"? XOM's Global URR Estimate in Y2k was 2.2-Tb. In seven years over 200-Gb was consumed and they've added 2.1Tb (300Gb/yr) to that for a new total of 4.1-Tb.

This Autumn, they raised their 2030 target to 116-mbd. Even w/o kerogen (900-Gb), where do u see that the XOM projection fails to reconcile?
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Re: Peak Oil: The Big Fizzle

Unread postby TonyPrep » Wed 16 Jan 2008, 04:09:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FreddyH', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'I') see the Exxon graph on world supplies, in the summary report, showed no difference from 2000, except for what it labels "frontier resources". As it talks about oil shale, it is reasonable to assume that their optimistic forecast of increasing world supply to 2030 are rather unrealistic. However, that is my opinion, of course.


With respect Tony, what do u mean "no diff from 2000"? XOM's Global URR Estimate in Y2k was 2.2-Tb. In seven years over 200-Gb was consumed and they've added 2.1Tb (300Gb/yr) to that for a new total of 4.1-Tb.

This Autumn, they raised their 2030 target to 116-mbd. Even w/o kerogen (900-Gb), where do u see that the XOM projection fails to reconcile?
I was referring to Exxon's chart on page 16 of their summary annual report. It shows the total of conventional estimates (produced and to be produced) of about 3.2 Tb in 2000. In the 2006 column, that has actually declined slightly to about 3.1 Tb, but the column is made much bigger by a block of "frontier resources", that kind of fades into the ether, to imply almost limitless global reserves of oil. Frontier resources are not fully defined but include oil sands and oil shale, so such resources could not be expected to provide anywhere near the production rate of conventional, so it's a bit dishonest to lump them all together.

As I understand it, current proven reserves and past production amount to less than 2 Tb, with some yet to be discovered that would take it above 2, some estimates way above (like Exxon), and some moderately above (like ASPO). The reason I mention this is that you quoted BP production and reserve growth, combined, as almost 600 Gb, in only ten years. Surely, this would represent an enormous portion of the current known endowment of 2Tb. Which makes me question it. Are you referring to oil equivalents (including natural gas), or conventional oil?
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Re: Peak Oil: The Big Fizzle

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 16 Jan 2008, 04:38:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'F')inally, there's pstarr's signature. Who knows how much fossil-fuel use is "hidden" in the production and maintenance of "renewable" infrastructure?
I could not think of a better use of fossil-fuel than in the production of renewables. It certainly beats pushing around 5000 pound metal boxes.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('efarmer', 'm')y interest lies in the direction of what is. It will always be easier to be right about what is wrong or useless than to be right about what is attainable.
Amen. But this argument applies to both sides of the issue. There are many naysayers here who sit back and poke holes in optimistic scenarios.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', 'W')e are going to have to get a bike or move closer to work. We'll abandon the lawn and get rid of a house that's an energy pig. The dummies are going to get stuck with the SUV's and suburbia.
I live in suburbia. Winters here are bitter and a bike/scooter solution will not fly here. But I drive a Corolla and live within 5 miles of work. Also the metro line is being expanded out here to the suburbs. Not all of us suburbanites are dummies.
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Re: Peak Oil: The Big Fizzle

Unread postby FreddyH » Thu 17 Jan 2008, 02:53:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FreddyH', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'I') see the Exxon graph on world supplies, in the summary report, showed no difference from 2000, except for what it labels "frontier resources". As it talks about oil shale, it is reasonable to assume that their optimistic forecast of increasing world supply to 2030 are rather unrealistic. However, that is my opinion, of course.


With respect Tony, what do u mean "no diff from 2000"? XOM's Global URR Estimate in Y2k was 2.2-Tb. In seven years over 200-Gb was consumed and they've added 2.1Tb (300Gb/yr) to that for a new total of 4.1-Tb.

This Autumn, they raised their 2030 target to 116-mbd. Even w/o kerogen (900-Gb), where do u see that the XOM projection fails to reconcile?
I was referring to Exxon's chart on page 16 of their summary annual report. It shows the total of conventional estimates (produced and to be produced) of about 3.2 Tb in 2000. In the 2006 column, that has actually declined slightly to about 3.1 Tb, but the column is made much bigger by a block of "frontier resources", that kind of fades into the ether, to imply almost limitless global reserves of oil. Frontier resources are not fully defined but include oil sands and oil shale, so such resources could not be expected to provide anywhere near the production rate of conventional, so it's a bit dishonest to lump them all together.

Ok, i see it now. Tony, the first group of estimates (incl Y2k) are from USGS. They are only there for comparison sake to their own estimate on the far right.

In materials made available to me, i used 4.1Tb for the XOM scenario; not the 4.8Tb inferred on that chart. While XOM is admittedly the third most optimistic of our 23 practitioners, their projections are quite conservative in the approach to 2030; and i used a 2% Decline Rate to exhaust this URR. I would prefer that they show a steeper URR to reflect the exhaustion of Conv Oil and then postpone the bulk of the non-Conventional development until after 2100. I've addressed at my website that i am displeased with the use of current standardized models' using non-conventional URR to bolster their production profiles. I don't believe the flow rates will sustain some forecasts.

But on the whole their model reconciles well and expends less than 2-Tb of URR by Peak Year.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', '
')As I understand it, current proven reserves and past production amount to less than 2 Tb, with some yet to be discovered that would take it above 2, some estimates way above (like Exxon), and some moderately above (like ASPO). The reason I mention this is that you quoted BP production and reserve growth, combined, as almost 600 Gb, in only ten years. Surely, this would represent an enormous portion of the current known endowment of 2Tb. Which makes me question it. Are you referring to oil equivalents (including natural gas), or conventional oil?

Again, BP's estimate of Reserves was 1049-Gb in 1997. In the last ten years, the globe has consumed 220 so the Reserves would normally be reduced to 829-Gb. But last year, BP announced its Reserves Estimate as 1372 ... fully adding 542-Gb or an avg of 54-Gb/yr to their tally... which as i said was almost exactly the figure USGS proposed in Y2k.

BP includes the Cndn tar sands in their estimate, but this is exclusive of Nat'l gas.
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Re: Peak Oil: The Big Fizzle

Unread postby TonyPrep » Thu 17 Jan 2008, 06:28:44

Ah! You mean BP's estimates of world resources, not estimates of their own resources.

Of course, there is one thing we can say with certainty, about estimates. They are bound to be wrong, whatever the source.
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Re: Peak Oil: The Big Fizzle

Unread postby KillTheHumans » Thu 17 Jan 2008, 21:48:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FreddyH', '
')
Reserves have two components: Discoveries & Reserve Growth. The pre-occupation with Discoveries is absurd in light of the awesome Reserve Growth. Why would any sane company knock themselves out with expensive explorations costs just to build up that R/P ratio? Do u feel 40 yrs is not enuf? Do u think it should be 50yrs? 60yrs?



Are you Reservegrowthrulz in disguise? He made points very similar to yours years ago.....heck, his screen name was reservegrowthrulz.

You should be warned that speaking truth to the collective silliness around here is not considered acceptable behavior. Nod...make up a silly scenario which somehow links peak oil to the end of the world.....if possible make the case for it happening TOMORROW, and then sit back and bask in the glow of enthusiastic backslapping for your creativity, which should be as devoid of thoughtful consideration as possible.

When the world doesn't end tomorrow, you simply blame cornocopians, the stock market, not carrying the correct number of significant digits in your model, and make up something more outlandish. I promise, no one will notice until you've been doing this for at LEAST a year or so...and then those who doubt your credibility will be roundly lambasted by the true believers, who are certain to rush to your defense.

Quite nice examples by the way, and I like your website. It brings together quite a few estimates of all sorts of things. You might want to provide links to how some trends might look if viewed from 10 years ago? It would be nice to see Campbells 1990 peak estimate and following production schedule matched up against reality since then, similar to how you listed Hubberts global oil production estimate. There are more than a few out there, and no one that I've seen has shown how the same people still forecasting and referenced on your graphs have been proclaiming the end of oil for a decade or more, putting their past estimates on the same graph as their current estimates would be quite educational for those who aren't aware of how many years they have been getting the answer wrong.
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Re: Peak Oil: The Big Fizzle

Unread postby TonyPrep » Fri 18 Jan 2008, 01:09:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KillTheHumans', 'Y')ou should be warned that speaking truth to the collective silliness around here is not considered acceptable behavior. Nod...make up a silly scenario which somehow links peak oil to the end of the world.....if possible make the case for it happening TOMORROW, and then sit back and bask in the glow of enthusiastic backslapping for your creativity, which should be as devoid of thoughtful consideration as possible.

When the world doesn't end tomorrow, you simply blame cornocopians, the stock market, not carrying the correct number of significant digits in your model, and make up something more outlandish. I promise, no one will notice until you've been doing this for at LEAST a year or so...and then those who doubt your credibility will be roundly lambasted by the true believers, who are certain to rush to your defense.
It's amazing how those who are desperate to believe in an infinite earth warp and distort the general views around here so that they can ridicule them. Very few posters here display the opinion that the world is going to end tomorrow. What is discussed is when peak is going to happen and what that might portend for our global civilization. There is no doubt at all that, unless we can start bringing resources from outside our earth, our collective societies will end. They will end because they rely on growth. As soon as they don't rely on growth, they are not the same societies. Whether those societies evolve to a no-growth model gracefully or catastrophically is up to the members of those societies.

The timing of this is unknown, except to note that energy resources may be the first required resource type that starts to decline, and many of the most heavily relied on appear to be within months, years or a few decades of decline (not running out, decline).

Clearly, oil production has been struggling to keep up with demand, of late. The figures from the EIA and the IEA show that. In fact, production has not kept up with demand. Maybe it will manage it again, maybe not. If FreddyH or you think you know otherwise, then you are mistaken, in that it is only opinion, not knowledge, just as are all opinions on resource declines. The only certainty is that production of the resources we rely on will decline some day.
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Re: Peak Oil: The Big Fizzle

Unread postby FreddyH » Fri 18 Jan 2008, 01:15:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KillTheHumans', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FreddyH', '
')
Reserves have two components: Discoveries & Reserve Growth. The pre-occupation with Discoveries is absurd in light of the awesome Reserve Growth. Why would any sane company knock themselves out with expensive explorations costs just to build up that R/P ratio? Do u feel 40 yrs is not enuf? Do u think it should be 50yrs? 60yrs?


Quite nice examples by the way, and I like your website. It brings together quite a few estimates of all sorts of things. You might want to provide links to how some trends might look if viewed from 10 years ago?

Image
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
') It would be nice to see Campbells 1990 peak estimate and following production schedule matched up against reality since then, similar to how you listed Hubberts global oil production estimate.

Image
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')There are more than a few out there, and no one that I've seen has shown how the same people still forecasting and referenced on your graphs have been proclaiming the end of oil for a decade or more, putting their past estimates on the same graph as their current estimates would be quite educational for those who aren't aware of how many years they have been getting the answer wrong.


Here's the link. We add more of the oldies but goodies each month.
http://trendlines.ca/peakoilcomment.htmImage
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Re: Peak Oil: The Big Fizzle

Unread postby FreddyH » Fri 18 Jan 2008, 01:30:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'V')ery few posters here display the opinion that the world is going to end tomorrow.

Forgive him Tony, he thought for a moment he was still among the lunatic fringe at theOilDrum site...
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Re: Peak Oil: The Big Fizzle

Unread postby KillTheHumans » Fri 18 Jan 2008, 01:33:54

It would be nice to see Campbells 1990 peak estimate and following production schedule matched up against reality since then, similar to how you listed Hubberts global oil production estimate.
Image


Thats it. Although the last time I checked his 1989 work, I could have sworn his 2007 production rate was even lower than what shows on your graph.

Again, excellent information at your site.
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Re: Peak Oil: The Big Fizzle

Unread postby JohnDenver » Fri 18 Jan 2008, 03:04:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'I')t's amazing how those who are desperate to believe in an infinite earth warp and distort the general views around here so that they can ridicule them.

The only one talking about an "infinite earth" here is you. You're hypocritically invoking a straw man while you complain about straw men.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he only certainty is that production of the resources we rely on will decline some day.

Certainly liquids will decline someday, which is the issue at hand. And everyone agrees with that, including everybody in this thread, as well as Lynch, O'dell, CERA and Yergin. So why are you even bringing it up? You're not telling us anything we don't know, or haven't accepted. You're not debating with people who believe in "infinite petroleum". You're debating with people who are skeptical about the predictions and FUD that peak liquids is imminent. We don't hold that position because we believe in abiotic oil, or an "infinite earth". We hold that position because the peak oil cassandras have been wrong so many times before. And, in fact, they are being proved wrong yet again, as we speak, by the rising liquids production reported by the IEA.

Now, of course, you're going to say "Well, the cassandras will be right someday. Liquids will peak." But the occurrence of peak oil doesn't prove the cassandras right. It proves everybody right, because we all predict that liquids will peak someday. The only way for the cassandras to be "right" is for peak liquids to occur right now. And that's not going to happen. Therefore the late-peakists, like myself, are the ones who are being proved right.
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Re: Peak Oil: The Big Fizzle

Unread postby yesplease » Fri 18 Jan 2008, 03:53:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', 'T')herefore the late-peakists, like myself, are the ones who are being proved right.
Only if they accurately predict it in the future. All we can say is that the late-peakists are not being disproved atm. ;)
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Re: Peak Oil: The Big Fizzle

Unread postby TonyPrep » Fri 18 Jan 2008, 05:42:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'I')t's amazing how those who are desperate to believe in an infinite earth warp and distort the general views around here so that they can ridicule them.

The only one talking about an "infinite earth" here is you. You're hypocritically invoking a straw man while you complain about straw men.
My apologies to killthehumans, if he doesn't believe in an infinite earth. If he doesn't believe that then what is his problem? Limits will be hit, it's only a matter of time, with an unknown timescale. But it's certainly true that many people (maybe most people) would like there to be no limits to what resources we can extract for our use or to what pollution our environoment can absorb without ill effects. If people accepted limits, I doubt there'd be much argument here, except on a technical basis.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he only certainty is that production of the resources we rely on will decline some day.

Certainly liquids will decline someday, which is the issue at hand. And everyone agrees with that, including everybody in this thread, as well as Lynch, O'dell, CERA and Yergin. So why are you even bringing it up?
Because there appear to be a few people here who don't believe in the limits. By the way, I've never heard or read Lynch admit to peak occuring some day. Could you provide a link, because I would genuinely be interested.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', 'Y')ou're not telling us anything we don't know, or haven't accepted. You're not debating with people who believe in "infinite petroleum". You're debating with people who are skeptical about the predictions and FUD that peak liquids is imminent. We don't hold that position because we believe in abiotic oil, or an "infinite earth". We hold that position because the peak oil cassandras have been wrong so many times before. And, in fact, they are being proved wrong yet again, as we speak, by the rising liquids production reported by the IEA.But, your last sentence implies that since predictions have been wrong in the past, they must always be wrong, implying oil will never peak. It is, of course, erroneous logic. And the most vociferous proponent of a past peak, recently, has been your very self, in this very thread.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', '
')Now, of course, you're going to say "Well, the cassandras will be right someday. Liquids will peak." But the occurrence of peak oil doesn't prove the cassandras right. It proves everybody right, because we all predict that liquids will peak someday. The only way for the cassandras to be "right" is for peak liquids to occur right now. And that's not going to happen. Therefore the late-peakists, like myself, are the ones who are being proved right.Being proved right? In what way are you "being" proved right? The figures show a bumpy plateau, and many peak voices have been predicting a peak by 2012, so I'd hardly say that you are being proven right. Let me pre-empt your attack on "bumpy plateau"; despite an apparent spike (remember that revisions go on for months and years, and that the November revision was markedly down, by the IEA), it's impossible to say, right now if we have reached a plateau, or whether the last quarter apparent large rise can start a rising trend, just mark a large blip or start a slightly higher plateau.

Your position is well known, JD. It's that you believe natural market forces will make peak oil a non-event, that people will willingly make some lifestyle changes, as energy declines or the energy mi changes, but the economy will trundle on, growing overall until some earth bound limit is reached (either in resources or environment) and then we'll simply start to harness resources from beyond our planet's bounds. However, if we don't progress to that limitless future, then the earthbound limits will be hit and people will have to live in a quite different society. It's the sheer rejection of limits that seems incredible to me.
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Re: Peak Oil: The Big Fizzle

Unread postby JohnDenver » Fri 18 Jan 2008, 08:26:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'M')y apologies to killthehumans, if he doesn't believe in an infinite earth.

Nobody believes in an infinite earth. Nobody.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'I')f he doesn't believe that then what is his problem?

I'm telling you straight out, he doesn't believe in an infinite earth, and neither does anybody else. There's no "if" involved.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'I')f people accepted limits, I doubt there'd be much argument here, except on a technical basis.

We all accept that the earth is finite, and we all accept that every resource deriving from the earth is finite. That point is not where we disagree. I'm baffled why you (and others here) keep stubbornly trying to prop up that straw man. I'm telling you, straight out, we've all accepted the limits, and we all agree that liquids will peak and decline.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'T')he only certainty is that production of the resources we rely on will decline some day.

Certainly liquids will decline someday, which is the issue at hand. And everyone agrees with that, including everybody in this thread, as well as Lynch, O'dell, CERA and Yergin. So why are you even bringing it up?Because there appear to be a few people here who don't believe in the limits.
Who? Name one person here who believes that liquids are unlimited and will never peak and decline. You're just making that stuff up. There aren't any such people.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'B')y the way, I've never heard or read Lynch admit to peak occuring some day. Could you provide a link, because I would genuinely be interested.
Here you are then:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mike Lynch', 'A') peak could occur due to depressed demand (technological innovation or taxes, etc.) but I don't anticipate it any time soon. I think there will be no peak due to geological reasons until at least 2030 and probably 2050, which assumes some "unconventional oil" such as gas to liquids and tar sands, and maybe shale oil.
Source

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', 'Y')ou're not telling us anything we don't know, or haven't accepted. You're not debating with people who believe in "infinite petroleum". You're debating with people who are skeptical about the predictions and FUD that peak liquids is imminent. We don't hold that position because we believe in abiotic oil, or an "infinite earth". We hold that position because the peak oil cassandras have been wrong so many times before. And, in fact, they are being proved wrong yet again, as we speak, by the rising liquids production reported by the IEA.But, your last sentence implies that since predictions have been wrong in the past, they must always be wrong, implying oil will never peak.
My last sentence implies no such thing. You're resorting to a straw man again. I have told you EXPLICITLY that I accept that oil will peak someday, and you are simply trying to inject the statement that "oil will never peak" into my mouth in a statement where I said no such thing. The sentence means exactly what it says: peak predictions have been wrong again and again, and are currently being proved wrong yet again.

This is what I'm talking about:
“Never again will we pump more than 82 million barrels.”
-- T. Boone Pickens, 9th August 2004. On the Kudlow and Cramer Show, MSNBC.

“Global oil [production] is 84 million barrels [per day]. I don't believe you can get it any more than 84 million barrels."
-- T. Boone Pickens, addressing the 11th National Clean Cities conference in May 2005.

"I don't believe that you can increase the supply beyond 84 or 85 million barrel as day."
-- T. Boone Pickens, on "CNN In the Money", June 25, 2005.

"Supply is—you‘ve just about had it on supply; 85 million barrels a day world supply is about it. "
-- T. Boone Pickens, on Hardball with Chris Matthews, MSNBC, Aug. 26, 2005
Source

Total garbage. The man is a laughing stock. And, like I said, he's currently being proved wrong. Voila:
Image

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'A')nd the most vociferous proponent of a past peak, recently, has been your very self, in this very thread.
There are two "peaks": conventional oil and liquids. Currently the stats show oil peaked in May 2005, as I pointed out when starting this thread. True, that may not be the ultimate peak, but it serves just fine to show what happens when oil production stops growing for 3 years: basically nothing. Global economic growth continues unimpeded.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', '
')Now, of course, you're going to say "Well, the cassandras will be right someday. Liquids will peak." But the occurrence of peak oil doesn't prove the cassandras right. It proves everybody right, because we all predict that liquids will peak someday. The only way for the cassandras to be "right" is for peak liquids to occur right now. And that's not going to happen. Therefore the late-peakists, like myself, are the ones who are being proved right.Being proved right? In what way are you "being" proved right? The figures show a bumpy plateau, and many peak voices have been predicting a peak by 2012, so I'd hardly say that you are being proven right. Let me pre-empt your attack on "bumpy plateau"; despite an apparent spike (remember that revisions go on for months and years, and that the November revision was markedly down, by the IEA), it's impossible to say, right now if we have reached a plateau, or whether the last quarter apparent large rise can start a rising trend, just mark a large blip or start a slightly higher plateau.
You're in denial. I'm right because I called out Boone Pickens on his B.S. more than 2 years ago. He's been demonstrably wrong four fucking times in a row, and you want to stand up now, and claim he's "right" somehow? You're nuts. He's wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong.
Colin Campbell has called the peak wrong 4 or 5 times already. See COLIN CAMPBELL WRONG AGAIN
As has Deffeyes. See THE MANY WRONG PREDICTIONS OF KEN DEFFEYES

Of course, you're going to fall back on the ol' workhorse of the early-peakists: "They'll all be right someday because oil will peak". But that's incorrect as well. Everyone is predicting that oil will peak someday, therefore, when oil peaks, everyone (including me) will be proved right. Not much glory there. The glory will go to the person who predicted that oil would peak AND correctly predicted the timing. That's not going to be Pickens, Campbell, Simmons or Deffeyes.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'I')t's the sheer rejection of limits that seems incredible to me.
Why? We're not locked to the earth any more than Columbus was locked to the Old World. I'm sure it was obvious to the people in 15th century Europe that there was no transcending the limits of Europe. And I'm sure it was obvious to the people of the 19th century that there was no transcending the limits of the earth's atmosphere. Unexpected things happen. Game-changing events. I don't see anything wrong with aiming high, and thinking outside the petri dish.
Peak Oil Debunked
JohnDenver
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