[I_Like_Plants]

Years ago, I lived in Scottsdale AZ just a hop skip and a jump west of the reservation. I wandered around the Res for a bit one day, driving around .... it was weird, yes it did look like a 3rd world country. The land was beautiful - green and productive, amazing in yuppie-sterile Scottsdale. But the buildings did look like they were built "bit by piece" and there was a real atmosphere of sadness...

Whites in the area were always complaining, Indians this and Indians that, where I think the biggest crime-committers were crazy druggie whites.

the Indians tried and tried to turn their backs on the white way of life and rather than being left alone the whites kept squeezing them harder and harder - there was a conscious program to eliminate the buffalo entirely for instance. Can't live off the buffalo if there are no buffalo.

The Navajo were pursued, their farms and fruit trees burned, then put on a long march and all possible done to kill them off. The last round of that was the gradual elimination of navajo sheep, to where there are not many left. Too many sheep on the land was the excuse, but somehow too many cattle scorching the hills are never a problem.

Apache kids in Scottsdale are occasionally seen asking for spare change on the sidewalk. They look like they need it.

And the saddest thing about it all is we whites lived the way the Indians did, thousands of years ago. It is not natural for us to work 40 hours a week for some corporation and eat factory food and all this modern white culture stuff either.

[Byron100]

Yes, I'm saddened and ashamed with how the Natives have been treated by the white colonialists over the past 400 years. If there really was a just and sane God out there, He would have caused the Europeans to contract a series of deadly illnesses once they came to North America, ending the colonial era even before it started (not to mention putting the mother countries back in the Dark Ages once more...hehe. )

There is no escaping the fact that the Natives were here *first*, and that we committed terrible crimes against our fellow human beings, even to this day.

I fully support the efforts of the Natives to declare independence from the United States and become a free and independent nation, and I wish them Godspeed in their much-belated struggle for freedom.

Hats off to the new Lakota Nation

[128shot]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kabu', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Denny', '
')I'd like to know, if the governments did a P&L statment with the Indian bands what it would show. Put taxes collected on the left side, and, on the right hand side, money paid toward Indians for all kinds of services, most of which did not exist at the time of their treaties being signed. I'd love to know the "net".

[nutmeg]

I'm a new poster here, and I admit that I am pro-white, but I support the Lakota Sioux in seceding from the evil Bush regime.

Anyone that secedes from a government that is committing a Holocaust in the Middle East, specifically in Iraq, gets my endorsement.

I don't believe in holding people who are alive today to be guilty of what white settlers did to the Indians, but I do think that the Iraq war is similiar to what the white settlers did to settle the US -- basically armed robbery.

I do not apologize for General Custer, or Columbus, or any other such murderers of Native Americans, but right now in 2007 I support Native American secession on the grounds that the Iraq War proves that the US government has NO LEGITIMACY WHATSOEVER.

And to all White people I say -- if you want to be absolved of all White guilt for shit that happened hundreds of years ago, now is your chance. Oppose the Iraq war and support Native American secession.

[kabu]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('128shot', '
')Nope. Screw the white man. If you're Latino, Black, Indian, or any other minority except Asian you're basically entitled to receiving aid is what you're saying.

[I_Like_Plants]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nutmeg', 'I')'m a new poster here, and I admit that I am pro-white, but I support the Lakota Sioux in seceding from the evil Bush regime.

Anyone that secedes from a government that is committing a Holocaust in the Middle East, specifically in Iraq, gets my endorsement.

I don't believe in holding people who are alive today to be guilty of what white settlers did to the Indians, but I do think that the Iraq war is similiar to what the white settlers did to settle the US -- basically armed robbery.

I do not apologize for General Custer, or Columbus, or any other such murderers of Native Americans, but right now in 2007 I support Native American secession on the grounds that the Iraq War proves that the US government has NO LEGITIMACY WHATSOEVER.

And to all White people I say -- if you want to be absolved of all White guilt for shit that happened hundreds of years ago, now is your chance. Oppose the Iraq war and support Native American secession.

[Loki]

I say again, this is just a few grandstanding activists making a fuss. Russell Means does not speak for the Lakota Nation, never has. Despite what some gullible, ignorant reporters write, the Lakota Nation still stands by the treaties they made with the US. There has been no breaking away from the United States.

I tire very easily of the "whitey is the root of all evil" argument, but it is pretty clear that the Native peoples of North America were royally screwed by Europeans and their descendants. That said, there is plenty of blame to go around for their current troubles. Like blacks, Indians have legitimate gripes about how whites treated them in the past, but they magnify these problems with their various sundry social pathologies (alcoholism, lifestyle-induced diabetes, rampant crime, etc.). I don't say that in a gloating way or to "blame the victim." It sucks for everyone involved, white, black, red, etc.

Some tribes have managed to do OK for themselves, though, and not just with casinos. I think good leadership is probably the most important ingredient.

[Pixie]

What I am not clear on here is: is this action being taken by the tribal council, or a bunch of activists? Because if it is the latter, it is just a publicity stunt and means squat. If it is the former, then it's much more interesting. Likely result: Lakota Indians lose their tribal recognition, all their land, their autonomy, and any assistance they have gotten from the US Government. I recognize their point: treaties broken, many, many of them. Doesn't mean they've got nothing to lose.

[Pixie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nutmeg', 'I')'
And to all White people I say -- if you want to be absolved of all White guilt for shit that happened hundreds of years ago, now is your chance. Oppose the Iraq war and support Native American secession.

[SpringCreekFarm]

I don't think that white race should feel guilty for what was done by their race in the past.

We have all (all sides ) grown immensely since then and only through honouring existing treaties and aggreements and negotiating new agreements can this be settled once and for all.

There are splinter groups in our area that take on the system and don't get anywhere because they don't get the support of the people. They have honourable intentions but I'm not sure there is a way of making sovereignty work.

I don't think we Natives can be sovereign at this point. There is nothing to be sovereign with. The system that was handed to us has worked for the government. It has put us in a state of dependence.

Not all reservations are the same. There is a big difference between a reservation surrounded by a lot of urban development, like the one I live on, and one that is located further north or in some other more remote area. There are some truly horrifying living conditions...

and for 128shot...the addictions and social problems cut a lot deeper than what you think. They are mired in it and you over simplifiy it.

The traditional way of subsistence living is also influenced by location. The further north you go, the more the people live off the land. If the government stopped our funding tommorrow, it would be the Olduvai Gorge for alot of reserves.

A group, nation whatever claiming sovereignty that cannot feed itself is not sovereign, in my opinon. Forget who's fault it is, it just isn't happening.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my post earlier, I didn't mean to be so hostile but there is an underlying anger that erupts when people speak ignorantly of others, not just Natives. It's sort of like the reaction you get from AAmericans when you use that word they don't like, and I don't like either.

For the record, in Canada we natives pay alot of taxes and do carry our own weight. We just have different tax CREDITS than others. I don't think there is a Canadian that pays ALL taxes but every native in Canada pays SOME taxes. Well maybe someday someone WILL sit down and figure out, including all the outstanding land claim and resource claims, the balance of who owes who what. That would be an interesting assessment.

A huge portion of the money that goes through the Indian Affairs in Canada goes toward funding a big fat bureaucratic system that skims a significant portion off the top. Trust me we aren't getting rich out here.

One thing that sucks about living on a reserve in Canada is the way the Indian Act, a legallity that Indians in Canada are governed under, limits us and treats us like children. If you can get a copy of it, read it. You'll chuckle at how my land tenant has to pay the government any rent money and then they pay it to the indian. ( Minus a cut, probably. ) That extreme example is not actually practiced, but the wording in the law is there.

Another thing that sucks is that I can only sell to people from my own band, or tribe, what have you. That's 1400 people in the entire world that are eligible to own my land. That means property out here sells for peanuts. Now, I'm not worried about that too much because I'm soooo happy to be here it's not funny but it would be nice if we could sell land to any native person in north america and buy land on other reservations just the same. We are locked into these little parcels called Indian Reserves as far as our own personal territory is concerened. This doesn't limit us in that we can purchase land away from the reservation, becase we can, but it just stinks that the government has such a grip on things that people off the reservation have no idea of.

gotta go.....

[I_Like_Plants]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SpringCreekFarm', 'I') don't think that white race should feel guilty for what was done by their race in the past.

A group, nation whatever claiming sovereignty that cannot feed itself is not sovereign, in my opinon. Forget who's fault it is, it just isn't happening.

there is an underlying anger that erupts when people speak ignorantly of others, not just Natives. It's sort of like the reaction you get from AAmericans when you use that word they don't like, and I don't like either.

[TheDude]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SpringCreekFarm', 'A') group, nation whatever claiming sovereignty that cannot feed itself is not sovereign, in my opinon. Forget who's fault it is, it just isn't happening.

[Gigashadow]

So, what programmes do the Indians have in place to help the people (including decimated tribes) *they* previously conquered. Or is paying up only for whitey?

[128shot]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kabu', '
')I never said that. Go argue with yourself in the corner, dumb shit.

[128shot]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SpringCreekFarm', '
')


and for 128shot...the addictions and social problems cut a lot deeper than what you think. They are mired in it and you over simplifiy it.

[Denny]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SpringCreekFarm', 'I') was afraid if I read this thread it would piss me off. And it has.

Funny how true colours of some people come out when you put this before them.

Denny, it doesn't surprise me that you'd feel that way about Natives because your stinking so-called Christians gave a grand colonial attempt at assimilation and the stealing of Native lands and is clearly written in the history books. Fuck you both.

Now that native groups are finally getting strength and fighting for their rights and trying to get their stolen lands back, fucktards like Denny and Ferret try to make like there is some hidden conspiracy to screw over the poor non-Natives.

To all those who wrote sane, kind words, thank you.

[SpringCreekFarm]

I was afraid if I stuck my nose into this thread I would be here a while, but I'm not going to do that.

I'm not going to try to get into this debate in detail because I've had far too many debates about it already most of my adult life and I'm 41. I don't really worry about it myself. I'm not a rebellious person per se. I'm not one of those people trying to make changes.

I'll make just a few more points and I'm going to try to disengage myself from this thread.

I agree that there could have been some screwups on the native side, therefore putting some of the land claims on shakey ground. I, however, don't have a clue because I'm not part of the process. It only stands to reason and I've always said that.

It is hard to prove or disprove something when the only accepted proof is in written form. The natives practiced an oral tradition which has only recently been given consideration in talks. The only things being written down in those days was by the whites and they could have easily written anything they wanted because the Indians didn't understand their foreign language well, if at all.

The comments about the clergy having the natives best interest in mind when they come over here is possible, but to a larger extent the underlying motivation was to assimilate and therefore control the native population. It's sort of like gathering more flies with sugar than with salt. It was paternalistic and the truth is, the natives were doing just fine beforehand, thank you very much.

There is a lot of history in print for those who care to read it. I'm no expert at any of this and believe me you almost have to be to carry on a serious debate. Therefore I'll not waste your time.

I prefer to spend my time quietly preparing for hard times and hoping political uprisings keep well away from me.

I believe we'll all start off on a different footing after a crash really goes south, whereby all bets are off, all rules will change and the constitutions and treaties will be moot.

Maybe then we'll see a real shake up in who's sovereign here and there amongst all peoples of this land.

[uNkNowN ElEmEnt]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut, in preaching the Christian faith, don't you honestly believe that Europeans were sharing their most precious possession? Why did the Canadian martyrs risk their lives to share this faith, knowing the risks? Because they felt it was worth it, to save souls. It was not for the land. We may look askance at that degree of faith today, but I don't think you can doubt their sincerity, their commitment and their love of their fellow man

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'I') used to be a right-wing Conservative Republican. But it dawned on on me, what are we conserving? There is movement in Conservative ranks. It's going to be clear to everyone in 2008 that we are in danger. Big danger. Liberal and Conservative is about to mean nothing.

[kabu]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('128shot', '
')Wow, instead of making a counter point, this is so much easier huh?