[I_Like_Plants]

A poster named Bob Shaw on theoildrum has as his constant sig file, "are humans smarter than yeast?"

I do not think they are.

More food = more yeast, always.

Some people say that humans are indeed smarter than yeast, since in times of plenty, like in the present American Empire and in the European Empire, in times of plenty birth rate has gone down.

However, consumption has gone up! The yeast have in effect become super-yeast, fewer in numbers but with each super-yeast the equivalent of 3, 5, maybe 10, regular yeast.

To find a parallel with Nature, I'd have to find an instance where yeast or other simple organisms, in response to plentiful food, curb their numbers to some degree but individuals get larger.

I'm going to postulate that numerous examples exist in Nature, and ask knowledgable people here, like Leanan, Smallpoxgirl, Shannyara, et. al., the science-educated, to cite examples.

And all to prove that no matter what anyone says, humans are not any smarter than yeast!

[Jack]

Of course humans are no smarter than yeast.

In the presence of abundant resources, yeast cells increase their consumption exponentially.

In the presence of abundant resources, [s]yeast cells[/s] humans increase their consumption exponentially.

In the presence of abundant resources, yeast cells expand in number, change their environment, and then experience a population dieoff.

And humans are doing what? Hmm?

[I_Like_Plants]

Right on Jack

I want to see if someone more knowledgeable than myself in single-celled matters can show us examples where yeasts, bacteria, etc have responded to greater resources by becoming less numerous, but bigger individually, thus consuming more overall.

Thus showing that humans are no smarter than yeast.

Or as they used to say, about Africa, "We feed, they breed". And as is said about Americans, that both figuratively and literally, they are Homo colossus.

[SchroedingersCat]

Yeast win. They eat sugar and p*ss booze all day. I'd like to see a human who could do that!

[Plantagenet]

Yeast and humans behave about the same when resources are abundant. But when resources get scarce, they behave differently.

Yeast continue to breed up to the limit of their resources. Humans have historically used various strategies to voluntarily reduce their numbers. Here in Alaska, the Aleut people have many stories about the older members of the communities voluntarily going outside in winter to die when food resources are scarce. In Europe, huge numbers of fertile people voluntarily went into monasteries and nunneries in the middle ages, helping to restrict population growth. In China female infantacide may have had the same effect in pre-Communist times, and more recently the state has been carrying out a "one-child" policy.

And of course humans will wage war for territory and resources. I'll bet you can't name a single yeast species that has nuclear capabilities.

[I_Like_Plants]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'Y')east and humans behave about the same when resources are abundant. But when resources get scarce, they behave differently.

[Dezakin]

Yeast don't engineer their own environment to expand the limit...

[I_Like_Plants]

a lot of single-celled organisms do, and I'm not sure if yeast do or not - I think they may make the pH balance or something best for them and not other "germs" while they ferment away in the wine barrel....

[Dezakin]

No they don't. They dont go out and make a new wine barrel when the one they're in gets snug, or arrange to have more sugar pumped in when it starts to run low. The humans = yeast analogy fails on the most basic distinction of humanity from all other species: Humans don't simply react; humans intelligently adapt, and engineer their solutions.

[PenultimateManStanding]

yeast can only pollute a vat of juice, humans can do the whole planet. If indeed the function of life is to homogenize gradients and accelerate entropic processes, then humans are orders of magnitude above yeast in intelligence.

[Kingcoal]

Yeast have the ability to go into "suspended animation," humans don't have that ability yet. When a yeast cell runs out of resources, it starts to build a shell around itself. After the water dries up, the yeast take on a form familiar to any bread or beer maker; an off white power of spores. When water is added, the yeast dissolve their shell and come back to life. The spore state is common in the microcellular world. Hell, if you want some yeast, just squat down and take a crap. The average human has at least a pound of this organism in their lower intestine. It's a symbiotic relationship, the yeast gets a warm, comfortable place to live and the human gets B vitamins produced by yeast digestion.

Humans just simply die off. In my opinion, yeast will out survive us.

[Dezakin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'y')east can only pollute a vat of juice, humans can do the whole planet. If indeed the function of life is to homogenize gradients and accelerate entropic processes, then humans are orders of magnitude above yeast in intelligence.

[Revi]

We are not "smarter", but we may be more intelligent. It may have made more sense to stay within the food supply, but this time we are coming off of an enormous feast for over a century. We increased our numbers and lived a much larger life for a while. Now it's over, so maybe just like the yeast it's time to produce something out of our decline, like alcohol.

[I_Like_Plants]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', 'N')o they don't. They dont go out and make a new wine barrel when the one they're in gets snug, or arrange to have more sugar pumped in when it starts to run low. The humans = yeast analogy fails on the most basic distinction of humanity from all other species: Humans don't simply react; humans intelligently adapt, and engineer their solutions.

[Dezakin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', 'N')o they don't. They dont go out and make a new wine barrel when the one they're in gets snug, or arrange to have more sugar pumped in when it starts to run low. The humans = yeast analogy fails on the most basic distinction of humanity from all other species: Humans don't simply react; humans intelligently adapt, and engineer their solutions.

[I_Like_Plants]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', 'T')he only chore ahead is continually expanding the economy and energy production some hundred fold to support a spacefaring society in the centuries that follow.

[Dezakin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', 'T')he only chore ahead is continually expanding the economy and energy production some hundred fold to support a spacefaring society in the centuries that follow.

[roccman]

I have talked with Bob several times over the years...

He was my favorite poster at the oil drum...very insightful...very tolerant.

He is much much smarter than yeast.

[basil_hayden]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', 'T')he only chore ahead is continually expanding the economy and energy production some hundred fold to support a spacefaring society in the centuries that follow.

[Dezakin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('basil_hayden', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', 'T')he only chore ahead is continually expanding the economy and energy production some hundred fold to support a spacefaring society in the centuries that follow.