[Olaf]

Just because most of them have been assimilated, does not negate that they existed, and their very existence directly counters your statement which is of the 'nature v. nurture' sort.

Summary and review of "Ishmael".

http://www.pantheist.net/society/ishmae ... eview.html

Olafr

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Olaf', 'J')ust because most of them have been assimilated, does not negate that they existed, and their very existence directly counters your statement which is of the 'nature v. nurture' sort.

Summary and review of "Ishmael".

http://www.pantheist.net/society/ishmae ... eview.html

[asdar]

I think doom is the collapse of civilization, or governments on a world scale.

I'm not a doomer.

I do think that a tech fix could be around the corner, but I think that even without a tech fix we could survive. The tech fix I think we need is energy storage of some kind.

We're only three generations from a time when we didn't need oil. We make food for the world and have a lot of fallow land we could use to make up for production shortcomings.

We have coal that will last long enough to transition to nuclear which will last long enough to transition to renewables.

We have a national rail system for delivery of needed supplies and to allow intra-national trade.

We won't keep chugging right along, but we won't collapse either. By we I mean the U.S., I do think many countries will collapse, just not the U.S. As long as we're up and running the world won't collapse either, just large portions of it.

[Heineken]

I think that human nature predates human culture. Our nature is imbedded in our primate past and has scarcely changed during the current civilization's reign.

All civilizations have collapsed, many of them unnecessarily. They were differed in many ways but had in common the human species.

Human groups share universal characteristics that are ultimately their undoing.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'I') think that human nature predates human culture.
Human groups share universal characteristics that are ultimately their undoing.

[Byron100]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'B')etter, worse; more, less; these too are the measure of our doom.

We have today (and arguably have had since about the mid 20th century) the technology to make life a material paradise, with abundance of everything including free time, learning, recreation, creativity, and yes even love and reverence and good works. In such a world, the struggle for survival would be relegated to history alongside death by smallpox. There would be no further need of hierarchies of dominance and submission, any more than there would be any further need of human sacrifice.

It would be indefinitely sustainable, as the eventual end of any given resource for example oil, would be forecast with enough foresight to enable the development of a replacement with enough lead-time to make the transition painless.

We could do that at a total human population level of about one billion humans.

And we could eventually start tinkering with our genes to change the homeostatic set-points of human emotion now that such feelings as chronic anxiety and depression no longer had adaptive rationales. In doing so we could rewrite the atavistic ape-programs that produce the compulsion to reproduce without limit and consume beyond our means. We would be prosperous and we would also be content, and we would have built a platform from which to launch the quest for near-universal enlightenment in whatever way you wish to define that term.

But, no.

The monkeys have won, 6.5 billion of us, breeding without restraint and consuming without reason, right up to the homeostatic set-point of our collective pain: the threshold, with its bread and circuses, below which revolutions do not occur. We have even nicknamed our present ruler Chimpy, an irony almost too much to bear.

And so we lurch along toward the edge of the proverbial cliff, missing one opportunity after another to change course just in time.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', '
')How to overcome our evolutionary instincts? Simple education isn't enough, if it was, we would not have problems with alcoholism, drug abuse, overeating, etc...the irrationality of instinct tends to win out over the rationality of intelligent thought (as a whole). To really turn the human race around, we'd have to chart a whole new course of evolution of the human species...either by widespread biological engineering or the selecting out the few out of the many who are predisposed toward rationality as opposed to those who are predisposed to the baser instincts (very touchy topic, I know...just tossing out a hypothesis here).

[Byron100]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', '
')How to overcome our evolutionary instincts? Simple education isn't enough, if it was, we would not have problems with alcoholism, drug abuse, overeating, etc...the irrationality of instinct tends to win out over the rationality of intelligent thought (as a whole). To really turn the human race around, we'd have to chart a whole new course of evolution of the human species...either by widespread biological engineering or the selecting out the few out of the many who are predisposed toward rationality as opposed to those who are predisposed to the baser instincts (very touchy topic, I know...just tossing out a hypothesis here).

[Olaf]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Olaf', 'J')ust because most of them have been assimilated, does not negate that they existed, and their very existence directly counters your statement which is of the 'nature v. nurture' sort.

Summary and review of "Ishmael".

http://www.pantheist.net/society/ishmae ... eview.html

[Olaf]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', '
')How to overcome our evolutionary instincts? Simple education isn't enough, if it was, we would not have problems with alcoholism, drug abuse, overeating, etc...the irrationality of instinct tends to win out over the rationality of intelligent thought (as a whole). To really turn the human race around, we'd have to chart a whole new course of evolution of the human species...either by widespread biological engineering or the selecting out the few out of the many who are predisposed toward rationality as opposed to those who are predisposed to the baser instincts (very touchy topic, I know...just tossing out a hypothesis here).

[buzzard]

( After all this time, I find that I am growing tired and depressed. I've been aware of Peak Oil and a quickly heating planet and for too long it has been a major focus of my life. So today I thought that I would peruse the Psychology section to see what others were going through. I never read the Psychology section and I rarely post at all even though I have been hanging around P.O. dot come since 2003 or so. I read the whole "What does doom mean to you?" thread and realized that my take is bit different than most. So here goes:)

My short answer to the question: "What does doom mean to you?" is simply, the status quo. As long as humans continue to live as they are they will continue in a state of doom.

Now for the long answer.

My vision of the future has evolved quite a bit in the last few years, from thinking that we need to educate and otherwise make enough people aware of P.O. so that we can begin mitigation proceedings which will solve the problem to realizing that the problem is Industrial Civilization itself. As long as humans insist upon maintaining this civilization at all costs we will remain in a state of doom. (and what I mean by civilization is based on the Greek root civitas meaning city).

The way I see it, the crisis began thousands of years ago. The crisis predates global warming, peak oil, anthropogenic species extinction etc. by a large margin. Since my first course in Anthropology some forty years ago I have been unable to shake the feeling that mankind took a wrong turn back there somewhere. Now I think that I know when and what that wrong turn was.

I must concur with Daniel Quinn and Derrick Jensen when they point to the inception of agriculture about ten thousand years ago as the fateful wrong turn. The first city-state was formed not long after along with priest-kings, the virtual enslavement of the masses and the never-ending drudgery which has become the peasant's lot up through today.

When we attempted to separate ourselves from the rest of Nature and began to see ourselves as above Nature, the die was cast. From that point onwards the human race began to live unsustainably on this planet. All that Peak Oil has done is show us the door earlier.

This is why phrases like "sustainable development" will always be an oxy-moron. We can not use technology to wiggle our way out of it. We can not use governments, religions, or any so-called civilized systems to save our bacon. We can't use new land "development" strategies; we must work to ( as Jensen says) save our land base.

So, for me the absolute first step we must take in order to save ourselves and the planet from certain destruction is to bring down civilization itself. That's it. Anything less is a non-starter. Building electric cars won't help us; nor will alternative fuels; or new technology of any stripe.

Humans lived in a state of grace with Nature for hundreds of thousands of years. In ten thousand years (the mere blink-of-an-eye) we have thrown it all away.

Will humans ever regain that state of grace? Possibly. But, I admit to not being sanguine about the prospect. So there is your other definition of doom.

Edit: For those of you who have not yet read Derrick Jensen's opus magnum "End Game", I suggest that you do so. Jensen's passionate critique and indigtment of industrial civilization is both compelling and urgeant.

[steam_cannon]

To me doom means: Events that were unthinkable by the public several years ago.

A few clips from the front pages of two Sunday edition newspapers, from this week.





Anything more is just icing on the cake!



Of course, if the questions was: What kind of doom do I predict?
"The hitchhikers guide to the galaxy" said it best with the answer: 42



But to be more direct, I have a good understanding of the implications of "Overshoot".
And my lack of faith in infinite growth makes me a doomer.

Third: why are you a doomer?
In my experience most people have faith that god exists and he will provide for all their needs. I have yet to find any religion that proves gods exist or that resources are not getting used up by this exponentially growing population. Put simply, I've found that most people are wrong most of the time because they put faith in ideas that are not backed up by verifiable facts. And I try not to make those same mistakes.

Instead of putting faith in a god to provide, it has been my habit to look at problems, answers and to evaluate how connected to reality those answers are. Someone might have faith that ethanol can provide all the fuel the US needs. However by more reasonable estimates, even if we devoted all our our farmland for ethanol at best we could provide for 13% of our present needs. With no population growth this would not be enough to fuel for the cars we have today. And definitely would not include trucks, homes, businesses. I would be very happy if Ethanol could fuel everyones lifestyle and would curb population growth. But that's not something it can do.

This civilization is running down. As the metals of this planet get mined out and are lost to rust, industry and use... People seem to have faith that we will find new mines underneath the old. But I see no proof of this either. As the price of fuel for mining skyrockets and the price of mined out metals does the same, metal shortages will provide another limit to growth. Commodities, like all things on this earth are limited and we have proof they are running out. To put things simply, just look at the price charts. Today's prices for metals would have been considered unthinkable years ago.

Even our friendly climate is getting used up. And though it's still somewhat popular to have faith that the planet can take care of itself, we are already seeing catastrophic impacts from climate change, which again is the result of overpopulation.

I'm a doomer because I understand that humans cannot control their numbers. And as much as I love technical solutions, technical solutions presented so far cannot replace the used up resources we depend on or reduce the population explosion causing our existing problems. The only workable technical solutions I have seen are distasteful and Machiavellian. My appreciation for what technology cannot do makes me a doomer.

I don't predict great success for today's generation. I think most people will face great difficulty. Presently I know many people who are suffering because of the mortgage crisis and economy, things I saw coming a long way off. And I think it's reasonable to predict more changes. At a minimum much higher food prices and fuel prices.

Finally considering how badly humanity has stacked the cards against ourselves, there is certainly the potential for civilizations to collapse, mass riots and all sorts of unpleasant things. Just as the Soviet Union collapsed, so can we. I try to keep my assessments objective as possible, based on the scientific studies I have access to and world history. But based on my assessments, I should certainly be called a doomer.

[Heineken]

Doom is a subject for intellectuals today. Tomorrow it will be a subject for maggots.

[steam_cannon]

I think another thing that differentiates doomers is the amount of research they've done into these questions...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('asdar', 'W')e're only three generations from a time when we didn't need oil.

[Heineken]

Wow, that's an impressive refutation, steam_cannon.

And yet people will continue to argue and squirm and deny and . . . anything but face the painful truth.

[steam_cannon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'W')ow, that's an impressive refutation, steam_cannon.

[Ludi]

Doom to me means the way I feel here on po.com, which brings out the worst in me.

[Ludi]

As someone who struggles against death constantly, I refuse to choose death for others, or choose it myself. If that means I'm living in a "fantasy world" so be it.

No one here will change my position on this.

[steam_cannon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'D')oom to me means the way I feel here on po.com, which brings out the worst in me.

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'P')lease read the books of Daniel Quinn to dislodge your misapprehension that our problems are due to "the human species." They are due to our culture, not to our species.


Read a book. Please.


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